Bach violin partita in d

[Stephanie Reiser]

I'm afraid that I disagree. Musicianship or musical interpretation is quite evident and can show the maturity of an artist. Listening to an early music specialist might sound dry to one person but can also demonstrate the subtleties of this music to someone else. Listening to a romantic specialist play baroque music might very well sound energetic and vibrant. I personally like Nigel Kennedy's recording of the Four Seasons. But even within his contemporary interpretation of Vivaldi's works is a wonderful touch of musical phrasing and lyrical playing. It's quite interesting really because Nigel has a wonderful and subtle sense of baroque phrasing within a new rendition of an age old work. The same argument can be applied to early music group, The Red Priest, who's blistering speed can give Thile a run for his money, and quite frankly, win. The difference is that Red Priest have a long history of education and knowledge about this music, which can be heard in their phrasing. In fact they were all early music majors. Yes they are playing Bach, Vivaldi, Teleman and Handel clean and fast but not at the expence of lyrical phrasing.....or should I say Musicianship. No matter what speed we take a piece of music at there is still the defining factor of phrasing and dynamics.

I think the other problem is that a 26 year kid, who is in essence a bluegrasser, can give a "Master Class" in regards to a style of music he knows little about. Don't get me wrong, I like Thile's playing. Not All Who Wander is a cd that frequents my CD player. On the subject of Bluegrass and Newgrass he is definitely an experienced player. But a Master of classical music he is not. To me this is the same thing as Bill Monroe giving a Master Class on Bach or the advanced techniques of Calace. Also, visa versa, it would be farcical for Vengerov, Menuhin or Oistrakh giving a Master Class on bluegrass/newgrass. Thile has been quoted in an article as stating that he has taken the mandolin as far as he can, technically. I find this hard to believe since he doesn't know anything about classical technique, which for the record is not defined by playing clean and fast. No matter style of music we play, it should be clean if anything. If Thile has indeed taken the mandolin as far as he can technically....I recommend he go to music college to experience the full depth of our little instrument and gain a little knowledge about music he is teaching others about.

There is a huge difference listening to someone play Bach (or anything else really)who is still in or just got out of music college compared to 20+ year professional. This is why colleges have "Master Classes". The people giving them are true masters of their instrument. The music they are performing and teaching has matured in their playing for a longer time than Thile has been alive. This is what makes them Masters of their craft. They can and have for many years disected a piece of music and can explain to eager young minds why they are playing it this way or that way. Even if they are not playing a piece "historically accurate", they can explain why that is note for note. A Master has a long lineage of professors and professionals who have all added to that person's education and growth.

Quote: "Early music is often sublime, but not always, and the factors that drive whether it moves us or not are often unrelated to the measure of historical accuracy involved."

That can be said for any style of music. Personally, eventhough I listen to Thile's albums, they generally only last for about two songs before they get replaced by something else. The effect of clean & fast wears off and I end up thirsting for something musical.

Bach is one of those composers that has been argued about over and over and over again. Part of the facination, I think, is that everyone has their own approach. Personally, I would really be interested in hearing Richard perform Bach...or anything from the baroque era. I hear through the grapevine that he is a wonderful baroque violinist.

Maybe Chris is, or is not, qualified to teach a master class in classical music. But the only evidence you've given to us in your post that he is not, is his age of 26. Will he be able to teach us this class at 28? If not let us know the number.

And for the record, Chris majored in music in college.

[Doug Hoople]

"There is a huge difference listening to someone play Bach (or anything else really)who is still in or just got out of music college compared to 20+ year professional. This is why colleges have "Master Classes". The people giving them are true masters of their instrument. "

I suppose, then, that you would have turned up your nose at a Master Class given by a 26-year-old W.A. Mozart, who, to the best of my knowledge, had little or no college music training, and a limited number of years of professional experience.

[Acquavella]

Ah, so are we now to the point of comparing Thile with the likes of Mozart, who was taught by his father (composer) as well as having Haydn as a mentor. Well hell, why don't we just put Thile on the same platform as Beethoven and Mahler. How about Stravinsky...why don't we just say that Thile is as good as all them put together. Has America gone completely mad? Surely if you can't hear the difference between one of Thile's tunes and the music of Mozart, then there is no point in continuing this conversation. As far as age, no, 28 would not be experienced enough in my opinion; unless it was a class on bluegrass. As I had mentioned in my previous post, master classes should be given by a true master of their instrument who has demonstrated a growing maturity through out the length of their career. If you read the post properly you would have seen that I gave a lot more evidence than just his age. Lack of knowledge of advanced mandolin techniques, lack of knowledge of mandolin repertoire, the difference between a young newly graduated musician compared to a 20+ year career professional....etc. A lot of it has to do with the length of time playing the repertoire that they are talking about. No matter what angle you try to take, the fact is that Thile is relatively new to classical music. Vengerov was a young child prodigy as well but has also been playing this repertoire since he was 8 years old as well as a long list of esteemed teachers. Thile has been playing bluegrass. So no matter what age he is now, Thile still has a relatively young view on Bach/classical music in general. I hope he does slow down for a CD recording; show more dynamics and lyrical phrasing. That might be a very enjoyable album. However, currently, he insensitively speeds through 300 year old music as a side show trick. Calling it like it is, Thile doesn't play Bach to create beautiful music at this particular moment. He plays a section of the partitas as a show off piece at his concerts. He shakes his arse and plays too fast, again only my opinion, because thats what the audience goes crazy for. This discussion started because of the YouTude video of his performance. Until he either records the Bach album or changes how he presents Bach - these are some of the criticisms that will appear over and over again by those that live this music on a daily basis.

[Bob A]

Ahhh, I love the smell of napalm in the evening . . . smells like Flame Wars!

I personally have made at least one enemy for life by defending Gilles Apap's interp of the cadenza in Mozart's 3rd violin concerto. If the man ever meets me in person, I'm certain I'll be physically assaulted. And why not? I did, after all, liken his mindset to that of the Nazis, while he thought that Apap should be isolated from right-thinking people, and perhaps forbidden to perform.

So it goes. I suspect we all like the music we like, even those of us who are so unfortunate as to be American, which I assure you is an accident of birth. Although fluoride in the water has given us strong teeth; it's possible it may have had an impact on our mental health as well.

I find Thile to be far too wiggly in public performance. I think he will never be so good at composing as Mozart is at decomposing.

I think the internet would be a far better place were we to reinstitute the code duello; pistols for two and coffee for one. I'd be pleased to act as second, arrange for weapons and a suitable ground. Choice of weapons, gentlemen?

[Brandon Flynn]

Acquevella,
Thile was not being directly compared to Mozart above. The person was not putting Thile on the same level as Mozart. They were making the point that you don't have to be very old or have college music training to be a great musiscian or composer (although it definitely helps). Mozart was mentioned as an illustration of this point. How do you know so much about Thile? How do you know what kind of musical education he has had? What "advanced mandolin techniques" are you talking about? And why do you have to respond with such a sardonic tone? I know that you may be somewhat offended with people too eager to praise Thile's classical performances, especially if you are a classical enthusiast, but do have to try to make other people seem less intelligent than you with your reply? And in my opinion, Thile may have a long way to go with composing and maturity, but he has mastered the mandolin technically.

[Doug Hoople]

Take a breath, AcquaV, take a nice, deep breath and relax. #You're taking this all much too seriously. #

We all love Bach. #We should be glad that there are so many people who also love Bach and want to play it. #

I honestly don't know the ongoing standard at which Mr. Thile plays his Bach in public. #I suspect that, in unguarded moments, he'll toss off a movement for the sheer fun of it. #I wouldn't judge him merely on that, but it sounds as if that's the case here with this YouTube clip.

If you actually believe that Bach should only ever be played in public when you're taking it with the utmost of gravity and seriousness and only when you are prepared to attempt a definitive version, then I think your definition of musicmaking is way too stuffy and formalized.

I have heard Thile play Bach sublimely, and I know how seriously he takes getting Bach "right," and I know that he's got gifts that allow him to leapfrog many of us. #He can compress into a matter of minutes the acquisition of knowledge and playing experience that the rest of us need months and years to acquire (one of the reasons he might be entitled to explore with us his approach at the tender age of 26).

If, on occasion, he choose to launch a sloppy version, or a version where he's curious to know how fast he can play it, or he's testing the water on some new concept that he's floating that week, or he just wants to noodle on some divinely satisfying material, then power to him. #

I'm sure that, when the time comes to commit to a "definitive" version, that he'll acquit himself quite well, and will bring with him a wide audience, some of whom will be educated aficionados who know what they're listening to and actually approve. #I can be pretty certain that you, Mr. AcquaV, will not be among that number. #

Rather than bashing Mr. Thile, who brings Bach to a wide audience that might otherwise be uninterested, why don't you focus on bringing our attention to those who you think get it right, and who have to work harder for attention than our Mr. Thile. #You've done nicely in that category, and I'm looking forward to listening to Neil Gladd's recording when it arrives on my doorstep.

I, for one, will follow Chris' efforts to absorb Bach on the mandolin with interest and enthusiasm.

[Alex Fields]

Does Hilary Hahn count as a knowledgable performer of baroque/classical music? She seems to approve of Thile's Bach.

I'll take Hahn's Bach over Thile's, sure, but I like both.

[JeffD]

Hello,

Personally, I'm not too crazy about Thile flying through Bach. Speed sometimes covers a lack of musicianship or understanding. I recommend checking out our very own, Neil Gladd, who has a wonderful recording of Bach's Partita in D minor, all five movements. The album is called "Baroque to Modern". Neil is very musical and shows an educated understanding of Bach's musical phrasing. The recording could use some reverb but the playing is lovely. Also, if you every have a chance to hear Alison or Caterina play Bach.......definitely something NOT to be missed.

I quite agree, on both points.

[RSW]

Ok, can't let this rest... case in point, Prelude to Bach's E major Prelude. I had a kid in a course I was teaching attempt to play this alla Thile (or what he understood from Chris's one off you-tube performance). The young lad was about 7 feet from where I was sitting and, to be honest, I could hardly hear him. He seemed to play the notes as fast as he dared (most of them) but it was like 'shadow boxing', no real punch. Anyway, I asked him to try to play out a bit so the folks in the 2nd and 3rd rows might get a little more and he said that normally he would have his 'pickup' hooked up (mic/amplifier). I realized then that 'technique' is relative and today's artist/singer has become a bit imbalanced in what would have been required technique (the technique to project all dynamics). Anyway, I tried to help with the other aspects of the piece (like the form and harmonies) and left it at that. I did think about this for some time and why Bach attracts 'all types' of players regardless of their musical background and eductation. A little while later a violinist colleague of mine sent me a compilation of 6 different 'turn of the century' recordings of the same prelude. Here we had the likes of Sarasate, Szigeti, Busch, Enesco, Powell, and another fiddler whose name escapes me. You had everthing imagineable from the speed demon Sarasate to the monumental feel given the piece by Szigeti. Even in the hey day of the romantic era, Bach's pieces were sometimes exploited for the 'fireworks' potential though not all players succumbed (listen to Joachim's performance and you get another story all together). Sarasate was a great musician and very popular artist (violinist/composer) of his time. Joachim and Szigeti as well but on a different aesthetic or cultural level. Occasionally you get a Heifetz who has it all (no one close to this guy today though I've been extremely impressed by the very young Ann Fontanella). My point here is that Bach on any level is better than no Bach, but it has something else when one has gone to the source (as it were). Maybe Chris should put down his F5 and spend a little time with 'the old instruments', just to understand the character and qualities of an era. Maybe he should listen to some of Bach's canatas, including the one that uses the material from the E major Prelude... as a sensitive musician, it might enhance his own performance knowing how Bach conceived this piece. It's funny, with the Bluegrass world, one doesn't leave a single stone unturned to pick up the scent, look and feel of the great 'Mon' himself. I'm sure if I played Monroe's music from a written out transcription (given that I studied and could play all the notes in tempo), I wouldn't impress too many BG people by my performance. I might impress my classical colleagues though because they don't know the real thing.

Technique is multi-layered, multi-faceted and playing the 'notes' is really only a part of what I would constitute as 'technique'.

Musicianship is based on cultural considerations (always), but because we no longer have level playing fields and music has now become intertwined in 'show' presentation and electronic wizardry, it's tough to 'compare'. By the way, I enjoy the musician Gilles Apap immensely though I doubt I could listen to his recordings more than once in awhile. He's a big talent and free spirit and a lot of fun, but the effect gets a bit tiring after awhile. Great art and musicianship manages to maintain its freshness and interest because of this incredible balance, form and direction. It's like a well told story, it's not about special effects for the sake of special effects.

I'm not sure one needs 20+ years studying Bach to be convincing with this music. It's possible to have the right musical 'instincts' and culture to bring out the best in this music from an early age. The public also has been conditioned to a certain aesthetic. It would be nice if musicians and public could look a little deeper into this music (like with the BG people and Monroe), but, as I said before, this music can take a lot of use and abuse. Enjoy...

[John Craton]

You had everthing imagineable from the speed demon Sarasate

As an admirer of the Sarasate legend I often wondered why he would have played the E Major Partita so ridiculously fast on his 1904 recording. After some research I found out he didn't. Somehow the recording itself was made too fast (a technical problem resulting from the equipment of the time), and if you notice the pitch itself is raised by almost a third. I've never understood why, with our modern abilities to manipulate recordings, no one has gone in an redone this recording so we could perhaps get a better sense of how Sarasate actually played it, but to my knowledge only the original "sped-up" version exists.

[Doug Hoople]

OK, OK, I've finally gone back and watched the YouTube video that launched this discussion. #I actually hadn't seen it until now. #Not particularly definitive, in my view. #I wish I could play so "poorly," but I digress. #

The criticisms lodged here on this video performance are valid. #It lacks architectural articulation above all else, it doesn't breathe, and it doesn't dance. #

That conceded, I've heard him play Bach quite beautifully, and so my other counterarguments stand, just not relative to this particular video. #

A couple of points, though...

1) If you had a YouTube out there of every little f@rt you've f@rted onstage, don't you think there'd be some embarrassing moments on record? #How many of us could stand up to such intense scrutiny? #This is a new phenomenon, and I'd bet some of those turn-of-the-century fiddlers mentioned above would have some less-than-stellar footage out there, too, if they were playing today.

2) What are we doing judging the guy on what some hapless kid is unable to do after watching his hero's video? Yes, I get that the point is that his hero-worshipers might be jumping into the pool before they're ready, but so what? #I can guarantee that some of those kids will be playing amazingly well 20 years down the road. #Chris will get them into the lesson studio... it's your job to teach them Bach!

'nuf said... I'm outta here.

Doug Hoople

[angelouself]

I have watched the video, and it's not quite what I expected. Having played the Sonatas and Partitas several times (including in concert), besides have studied it for years (started the first one when I was 11), I also took in consideration the legacy of Grumiaux (which in my opinion has recorded the best version of these compositions) and some other great violinists. However, I play with my own interpretation of the work, but having studied classical music since a child , playing with Orchestras and other musicians, I certainly have some influences from these experiences. The entire "musicianship" is built from every experience.

I feel his Bach is very rushed (it's ok to play it fast if you are consistent on the phrasing and expression) and sounds very "bluegrass"-ish. I agree with Acquavella in several points (and no, I'm not an anti-Thile, I think he is good at playing bluegrass, just not Classical), it requires a lot more experience (as a teacher and as a performer), study and knowledge on mandolins, repertoire, techniques and music in general in order to give master classes on classical music, on the mandolin. Considering he is a bluegrass mandolinist, I think his knowledge on classical mandolin repertoire and technique is low, just like mine is on bluegrass. However I don't give master classes on bluegrass, and still don't attempt to teach others how to play Bach.

For those who'd like to listen Bach on the mandolin, I suggest listening to a new CD, released by Dynamic of Dorina Frati and Piera Dadomo, the CD is named "Bach for Mandolin & Guitar" and you can order it over the internet, just Google-it up.

[Bob A]

I'd thought a lot of these pieces were originally based on courtly dance structures. Hard to imaging anyone dancing to some of this stuff. Though Thile uses a lot of body english when he plays. (Why is it "english", a notably undemonstrative group? Body-italian would perhaps be more appropriate).

[Acquavella]

Thanks Fabio for the recommendation of Dorina's CD. I haven't heard that CD but I really love her playing. Very musical and a lovely tone.

I'm not really going to say anything more on this subject. Richard has very eloquently stated all the sentiments that I was trying to get across. I will, however, state that at no time in my messages was there a need to "Take a breath, AcquaV, take a nice, deep breath and relax" or chill out or anything else mentioned previously. The problem with having intellectual debates through a messageboard or via email is the absence of tonal inflection. My vocal tonality or timber was mellow and relaxed through out. I assure you that I wasn't angry at any point or hot-headed. I also had no intent on demonstrating my 'intellectual prowess' by making others feel less intelligent. I was simply trying to make a point with the facts and knowledge at hand. I apologize if anyone is offended.

[hedding]

this thread is really depressing.

it's interesting how different people interpret thiles music because many people wouldn't really consider him a bluegrass picker, now he's not classical.

i do like the argument that classical playing takes a lot more skill and knowledge than bluegrass playing though. i just don't really get it. it's just as hard in my opinion to phrase monroe's music as it is bach's.

you classical guys/girls are sure hard to impress though and i'll commend you on that.

[Doug Hoople]

My vocal tonality or timber was mellow and relaxed through out. I assure you that I wasn't angry at any point or hot-headed.

I'll have to be forgiven for taking the following as an exasperated Internet shriek:

"why don't we just say that Thile is as good as all them put together. Has America gone completely mad?"

Merry Christmas, AcquaV. #Enjoy your holidays!

[Jim Garber]

i do like the argument that classical playing takes a lot more skill and knowledge than bluegrass playing though. i just don't really get it. it's just as hard in my opinion to phrase monroe's music as it is bach's.

I don't think that the point necessarily was that classical takes more skill and knowledge -- just that it takes different skill, knowledge and sensitivity to the music. Just playing the notes in the score does not make the music. It wokrs both ways (as was said above by a few): I think a classically trained player can certainly play Monroe's notes but may very likely miss the true gist and feeling that makes his music what it is. The same goes for Bach.

[Martin Jonas]

you classical guys/girls are sure hard to impress though and i'll commend you on that.

Those who aren't regulars in the classical forum may not appreciate that quite a few contributors to this thread are seriously high-powered classical soloists. When players of the standard of Neil Gladd, Richard Walz, John Craton and Fabio Machado express an opinion on how to play Bach on mandolin then I, for one, will sit up straight and take notice.

Bob: there is an interesting article somewhere on the net about an experiment of actually getting dancers to dance to the cello suites. The conclusion was that it doesn't work, never was intended to work, and that the nominal "dance" forms were just the framework for Bach's inspiration. I would think the same applies to the partitas.

Martin

[Acquavella]

No Doug, that wasn't an internet shriek. That statement too can be said with a calm demeanor. I apologized once; I'm not doing it again. Piss off!

And for the record, the name is AcquaVELLA not AcquaV. Cheers.

(yes, now my tone has changed).

[Woody Turner]

Does this thread remind anyone else of the debates that Glenn Gould's interpretations of Bach generated? You have the speed and phrasing issues, plus the performance 'distractions.' Check out this link for a sampling: http://www.jsbach.org/gouldgoldbergvariations.html

[Doug Hoople]

No Doug, that wasn't an internet shriek. That statement too can be said with a calm demeanor. I apologized once; I'm not doing it again. Piss off!

Who asked for an apology? You haven't expressed anything on this thread that you haven't meant with all your heart, Chris. That is your name, isn't it? Chris?

A pleasure to have made your acquaintance.

[hedding]

you classical guys/girls are sure hard to impress though and i'll commend you on that.

Those who aren't regulars in the classical forum may not appreciate that quite a few contributors to this thread are seriously high-powered classical soloists. #When players of the standard of Neil Gladd, Richard Walz, John Craton and Fabio Machado express an opinion on how to play Bach on mandolin then I, for one, will sit up straight and take notice.

Bob: there is an interesting article somewhere on the net about an experiment of actually getting dancers to dance to the cello suites. #The conclusion was that it doesn't work, #never was intended to work, and that the nominal "dance" forms were just the framework for Bach's inspiration. #I would think the same applies to the partitas.

Martin

i certainly will listen to them and am willing to hear their opinions and will ask further questions when i need some advice.

i guess my point is, would you rather have thile playing bach even if it's wrong, in your opinion, or not at all?

hate him or love him you have to admit he is exposing a lot of people to bach that wouldn't normally hear it and he may even be leading people to players that play more true to the original versions.

plus thile was the first to admit he doesn't have it down yet. it's a journey.

here's a quote from eddie adcock that i think applies here and i come back to frequently if i am ever feeling judgemental which unfortunately is frequently.

“never cut another musician down, no matter how good or bad you may think he is. for music is music and not technique, which are you judging? love all music and soon that coupled with practice will make you a great musician.”

happy holidays.

[Doug Hoople]

Bob: there is an interesting article somewhere on the net about an experiment of actually getting dancers to dance to the cello suites. #The conclusion was that it doesn't work, #never was intended to work, and that the nominal "dance" forms were just the framework for Bach's inspiration. #I would think the same applies to the partitas.

Martin,

I'd be very interested in reading that article, if you could dig up a link, as I think a lot of us would. #

Mainly, though, the question that arises is, how much should we keep or ignore of the underlying dance styles? #

Should we still try to capture certain essential elements that we know inform the style (i.e., emphasizing the 2nd beat in the Sarabandes)? #Certain things along those lines strike me as perfectly natural to retain. #

What exactly are we supposed to NOT do? #The obvious is avoiding gigues at the usual tempo that makes us want to get up and dance to them (taking this thread's Dm Giga as an example). #

Did the article draw any specific conclusions along these lines?

Thanks.

Doug

[Martin Jonas]

I'd be very interested in reading that article, if you could dig up a link, as I think a lot of us would.

Mainly, though, the question that arises is, how much should we keep or ignore of the underlying dance styles?

Should we still try to capture certain essential elements that we know inform the style (i.e., emphasizing the 2nd beat in the Sarabandes)? Certain things along those lines strike me as perfectly natural to retain.

Found it: Link.

The author certainly found it informative to look at the pieces through the eyes of a Baroque dance specialist rather than a cellist, and to consider what the underlying dances would have looked like, even if his final conclusion is that they were not meant for dancing. So, by all means, do get the Sarabande pulse going!

Martin

[Shalebot]

Has America gone completely mad?

Thile '08.