Bach violin partita in d

[Jim Garber]

i guess my point is, would you rather have thile playing bach even if it's wrong, in your opinion, or not at all?

hate him or love him you have to admit he is exposing a lot of people to bach that wouldn't normally hear it and he may even be leading people to players that play more true to the original versions.

There is certainly nothing wrong with his playing Bach and many other folks not originally "trained" in the classical mode are doing and have done for years. There are countless variants -- Switched on Bach comes to mind in the electronica genre.

I do think, from what folks here who have been in his presence indicated, that he does have reverence for the music and may even agree with much of the criticism of his playing. I think it would do him quite well to meet and learn from some of the masters of classical mandolin. Not that he has to play like any of them and may prefer to interpret the music in any way he wishes. If nothing else he sounds like a sensible person, not entirely ego-driven and with the capabilities and talents of a great musician.

Plus he hangs with Mike Marshall who is also of that ilk and has explored quite a few genres himself.

What is disturbing tho are musicians who come out of playing one genre and think that they are masters of another. Many years ago I was asked to review a recording by a woman who touted herself as a master classical violinist and who made a recording of what was ostensibly old time and Irish tunes. I also heard her play in person at a foilk festival and she billed herself as a master fiddler when I don't really think she had a clue what fiddling was about. Her music lacked the soul and understanding -- yes, she caould play the notes and could play circles around other fiddlers who immersed themselves in the genres, but was it good music. In that case, no.

[harwilli55]

I am not a musician. I visit this little corner of the cafe most every day. I look forward to the discussions in here for the most part, because of the incredible expertise and breadth of knowledge of the participants who study, write, perform, and live a life in music I could only dream of. I learn much. Much I learn may not be trasnslated to my playing style or ability, but certainly educates me about topics I know little to nothing about and enhances my enjoyment of music. I am thankful to have such educated, articulate, passionate posters writing about their music.

It is intimidating to mingle with this crowd when responses to postings become inflamed. For those of us who have little to no background in classical music, what possibly could we add to the intellectual discourse here. Sometimes, I think that many of you have been in the stratosphere of intellectualism so long, that you FORGET what it is like to be new and unsure of how to fit in. That is speaking from my point of view of course. I do not say this to be coarse or judgemental, but observationally to be taken or not taken in.

I have seen Chris play and was awed by his speed and grace as well as his musicality(however, I do not consider myself informed enough to make any judgement where he fits in the world of music). An aside, it seems that Carlo A. is held here(in this forum) with the same reverence as Chris is by younger folks in other forums. I, personally, do not believe that Chris is a god or a master. Yet, Chris has been studying, playing and performing since he was 6? 8? So he has studied, practiced, and worked for more years than I can imagine. I certainly cannot tell you what exactly he has studied and what styles he may have worked with during those years. However, his playing is the result of long years of work and not spontaneous talent. Chris lives in a world that is much different from Bach. The amount and variety of music he is/has been exposed to is staggering in comparison. The path he has chosen is different, the work he has put in is not !! First and formost, I recognize that Chris is a musician. That means he has given his passion to studying,learning, and exploring the musical world. How and by whom he was introduced to the Masters of Classical Music matters not, but I can gurantee that he is much more knowledgeble than I. How he views Classical Music and approaches it is yet to be determined. Whether his interpretation will consist of speed and rapidity or sensitivity and passion remain to be seen. Chris will mature, grow, stretch, and expand as he grows older.

Try to remember, that all of us, in our passion and love of music, of any kind, have and will most likely again, make absolute statements. While absolute statements are an ineffective method to say what it is we are feeling, it is also ineffective to dismiss that person when acceptance would most likey open a door, inviting questions ensuring a whole new coterie' of classical music enthusiasts. Remember, that most of us, have not chosen the path you have, and do not have the knowledge base to ask even the most basic of questions. So our articulation will be less than ideal, yet the fervor of our love of music, no less passionate than yours. I am humbly in awe of the amazing talents here in the classical world.... of that please be ensured. And as I stated above, I am thankful that there is such a place and group from which I can learn much.

Harlan

[Doug Hoople]

Found it: Link.

Martin

A belated thanks, Martin, for the link!

Interesting reading. Especially interesting the commentary on the Courante, given that it's generally been given a fairly uniform approach to tempo (i.e., faster) throughout the years. It will be interesting to dig into that.

Doug

[Doug Hoople]

As an admirer of the Sarasate legend I often wondered why he would have played the E Major Partita so ridiculously fast on his 1904 recording. After some research I found out he didn't.

Very nice bit of deduction, John! Truth is almost always more interesting than fiction.

Have you been able to puzzle out the math required to get the real tempo? Absent that, have you found a variable-speed turntable to lower the pitch to the right level, and simply measured?

Doug Hoople

[Bob A]

Regarding dancing to Bach; it was Arnold Steinhardt of the Guarneri String Quartet who wrote about it in his book "Violin Dreams", which is, among other things, a meditiation on his efforts to find the inner spirit of Bach's Partita in D, especially the Chaconne. In fact, the book includes a CD of him playing the piece twice; once as a younger player, the next as a much more mature artist.

[Doug Hoople]

So, um.... on a not entirely unrelated topic, a quick quiz? #

How many of the experts of Baroque performance practice improvise? #In the Baroque style, that is. # #

The stereotypical assumption is that absolutely none do (continuo players excepted, that is), all of them being "paper trained" (a term I use affectionately, not derisively, BTW).

I'd be surprised, though, if absolutely none improvised from among our long and hard and deeply-steeped authenticists. #On the other hand, I'd also be surprised if any more than 1 in 10 did. #

If soaking your bones in the practice of the day is totally essential to "getting it," as seems to be the consensus among the serious of this thread, then it stands to reason that at least some improvisational ability would be essential.

I mean, Bach was a monster improviser, actually more a complete composer-on-the-fly, but an improviser non plus ultra for certain, on fiddle and keyboard. #And contemporary composers often had to notate in their scores the places where improvisation was verboten, so it can be assumed that many ordinary players sported improvisational chops as well. #

Are we, then, fooling ourselves into thinking that we've captured the essence of the Baroque performance experience if our playing is uninformed by our ability to improvise? #

For example, does anyone doubt that Bach could crank it up under the feet of the dancers in the beer halls? #Would that change at all our impression of how to approach his music? #

Could it be that there's more to be absorbed from non-specialists than we think, especially if they've got salient skills that the specialists lack?

For the record, this is a new-ish angle on this question for me, and I don't have an answer. #

Doug Hoople

[John Hill]

Quite by accident I ran across this recording of some Sonatas & Partitas on mandolin, including Partita #2 in D Minor:

Shmeul Elbaz

There are some clips so you can get an idea of the work.

I just wish he would have recorded with anything other than a bowlback; can't stand that tone...or lack thereof.

[Henry Girvan]

With regard to the mandolin used by Shmuel Elbaz on his recording I think you will find that it is not a bowlback instrument as he thanks Arik Kerman for making his mandolin and as it is shown on the CD cover you will see that it is a flatback instrument.

Instrument made by Arik Kerman have become the instrument of choice for many players of the mandolin in Israel.

[bradeinhorn]

i can't believe that a forum on the mandolin cafe has deemed chris thile a bluegrasser. awesome.

[John Hill]

With regard to the mandolin used by Shmuel Elbaz on his recording I think you will find that it is not a bowlback instrument as he thanks Arik Kerman for making his mandolin and as it is shown on the CD cover you will see that it is a flatback instrument.

Instrument made by Arik Kerman have become the instrument of choice for many players of the mandolin in Israel.

I think I know what you're talking about. I saw a video of a mandolin quartet in Israel and their instruments would match your description. Those didn't sound too bad to me.

Elbaz's kinda sounded like my old plywood Samick frankly but it coulda been the mp3 clip quality also. But still I think it's nice to have a recording of some Partitas & Sonatas to get an idea of what they can be on the mandolin, my tonal preferences notwithstanding.

[John Hill]

i can't believe that a forum on the mandolin cafe has deemed chris thile a bluegrasser. awesome.

Shhhh...don't tell the "Bluegrass" forum. It'll be like the Hatfields & McCoys if the word gets out.

[Doug Hoople]

"Posted: Dec. 24 2007, 15:14 So um..."

It wasn't a rhetorical question.

[Jim Garber]

"Posted: Dec. 24 2007, 15:14 So um..."

It wasn't a rhetorical question.

Patience, Doug... it is a holiday week.

[joec]

So, um.... on a not entirely unrelated topic, a quick quiz?

How many of the experts of Baroque performance practice improvise? In the Baroque style, that is.

I think it's coming back into favor, along with a less "modern classical" 20th century approach to Baroque music.

Check our Andrew Manze, a British violinist and a positive luminary in this regard. I think his improvisations and interpretations are very rooted in a scholarly approach to original scores, but the results are totally organic and very free. He has many great recordings on Harmonia Mundi with harpsicord/lute/therobo as well as with the Academy of Ancient music. I'd say this guy has really brought a lot of musical life back into an area that had gotten a bit dry and dusty, and musicians are catching on--I heard a Biber piece at a concert recently here in Vermont that was based on a new interpretation by Manze (as admitted by the cellist to me). Hopefully he can inspire further improvisation though and not only imitation. It's a very musical approach that combines well with the actual sound of his period instrument and setup.
BTW, I'm sure that there are others as well, this just happens to be the guy that I got interested in after hearing him speak and play live on the radio a number of years ago.

Interestingly, my 2.5 year old daughter prefers a Manze recording of Vivaldi's E-flat violin concerto to any other music in the house. She knows the cd because it's orange, and requests it by asking for "buda buda buda buda (root), buda buda buda buda (fifth)". We crank it up and dance like crazy. I'm partial because I can tell that he has a the free soul of a fiddler (along with great technique).

Joe C.

[g-mac]

Someone mentioned Arthur Grumiaux above. . .

I had only ever heard isolated mvmts of this music previously, and wanted to get a complete recording without shelling out a lot of cash. I got the Philips "Duo" disc of Grumiaux doing all the Sonatas and Partitas. I had never heard of him before, but this has quickly become one of my all-time favorite recordings.

Incredibly rich tone and vivid musicality. Five stars. Buy it!

Doug, your point above is well taken re. Baroque "authenticists" learning to improvise in the Baroque style if they really want to be authentic. I think this would take a whole different type of training than the modern-day violinist gets. Essentially, you'd need to study Baroque *composition* and understand the harmonic language and syntax from the ground up. This is difficult to say the least.

I know Robert Levin improvises cadenzas when he plays Mozart piano concertos, but I think this is pretty rare. I saw an interview with Keith Jarrett after he had recorded some Mozart concertos, and the interviewer said, essentially: "you're so well known for improvisation, I'm surprised you didn't improvise the cadenzas". Jarrett simply said that he doesn't improvise in historical context. I found this interesting for several reasons, but the primary thing I took away from it was that the ability to recreate (and even beautifully interpret) written music in a historical style is completely different from the ability to improvise in that style.

Learning to improvise is a truly humbling enterprise and engages totally different parts of the brain than learning written musical pieces. I think you're right that the number of Baroque "authenticist" violinists who can improvise effectively in that style is pretty low. It's probably more common with keyboard players, since realizing a figured bass (which many of them can do) enforces knowledge of the harmony and is itself a kind of improvisation.

[Eugene]

Haven't been 'round these parts for a while. #Looks like I missed a bunch. #I like Thile just fine, actually quite a bit...perhaps even a whole lot, escpecially when he's doing his own stuff and not necessarily when playing Bach. #Excellent musicians with non-classical backgrounds often take too straight an approach to phrase and tempo in crossing over, and that's always how I feel when I hear Thile on Bach, live or otherwise. #Personally, I thought the Bach excerpts were the low point of the extraordinary Thile-Meyer set on their recent tour. #Your opinion may differ without shame. #For the sonatas and partitas, I'm still partial to Milstein.

Now, if only music composed for mandolin could generate half as much interest and debate amongst mandolinists...

[Eugene]

I just wish he would have recorded with anything other than a bowlback; can't stand that tone...or lack thereof.

For shame! #Such words could cause trouble 'round these parts. #The funny thing, as mentioned by others, is that the Israeli camp, including in this instance, favors flat-back mandolins.

You can find a fair amount of tone here, e.g.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=begKB3tP_w0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdarGI6LBBY

Keep in mind that a grand piano is pretty loud amongst the world's acoustic instruments.

[John Hill]

I just wish he would have recorded with anything other than a bowlback; can't stand that tone...or lack thereof.

For shame! Such words could cause trouble 'round these parts. The funny thing, as mentioned by others, is that the Israeli camp, including in this instance, favors flat-back mandolins.

You can find a fair amount of tone here, e.g.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=begKB3tP_w0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdarGI6LBBY

Keep in mind that a grand piano is pretty loud amongst the world's acoustic instruments.

I knew saying that would get me in trouble over here!

It is, however, sad but true for me that I just don't care for that plinky & "harpsichord-esque" tone of bowlbacks.

When I hear Mike or Evan Marshall play on their F-5's...now there's some tone I wish classical soloists would utilize. It's far more pleasurable for me to listen to although I admire the music that those we've discussed play.

As for Elbaz's tone, I will blame poor quality mp3 clips for leading me to derision. I have a flatback mando myself and enjoy their sound a great deal.

Forgiven?

[Eugene]

Sure...although I don't think you need to seek forgiveness because there's really nothing at all wrong with not liking the tone of bowlbacks. #Similarly, I don't have much interest in hearing f-holed plucked things, neither mandolins nor guitars, outside of what is generally considered "chop"-appropriate music, like swing or bluegrass (where I like them very much), and I feel no need to apologize for it. #There's also nothing wrong with other opinions differing from mine.

However, I believe the notion that bowlbacks lack tone or power is both commonplace in the US and flawed. #This perception comes of the fact that many American mandolinists:

1. come to the mandolin via bluegrass where bowlback tone is not really appropriate,

2. have never encountered a quality bowlback in playable condition (assuming a high-end Vega, Martin, Calace, Embergher, etc. has anything like the functionality of the mass-produced, no-name, Chicagoland junk that proliferated to serve a massive crowd of fickle amateurs ca. 1890-1920 is as erroneous as assuming a Loar-signed F-5, Monteleone, etc. functions anything like the more common Johnsons, Rogues, etc. of today), and

3. have never heard a quality bowlback instrument played live with anything like the technique or repertoire around which it was built (chopping at them with a Golden Gate doesn't really work).

Listening to a lot of both mandolin and harpsichord music, I also don't feel that bowlback mandolins sound any more like harpsichords than an F-5 does.

...But now back to Bach and perhaps my sorrow that mandolinists neglect mandolin music.

[Woody Turner]

This past summer at the Cape Cod Mandolin Camp, conservatory professor and player extraordinaire Jim Dalton led a highly insightful workshop on improvising preludes to 18th-century pieces. He provided a number of useful tips for tailoring the improvisations to the work.

[Doug Hoople]

However, I believe the notion that bowlbacks lack tone or power is both commonplace in the US and flawed. #This perception comes of the fact that many American mandolinists:

1. come to the mandolin via bluegrass where bowlback tone is not really appropriate,

2. have never encountered a quality bowlback in playable condition (assuming a high-end Vega, Martin, Calace, Embergher, etc. has anything like the functionality of the mass-produced, no-name, Chicagoland junk that proliferated to serve a massive crowd of fickle amateurs ca. 1890-1920 is as erroneous as assuming a Loar-signed F-5, Monteleone, etc. functions anything like the more common Johnsons, Rogues, etc. of today), and

3. have never heard a quality bowlback instrument played live with anything like the technique or repertoire around which it was built (chopping at them with a Golden Gate doesn't really work).

Listening to a lot of both mandolin and harpsichord music, I also don't feel that bowlback mandolins sound any more like harpsichords than an F-5 does.

You need to be careful what you say when you say, "People say stuff like that because they don't have a clue." There are a lot of people around here who have a lot of clues.

The modern violin is loud and round and fat in comparison to the Baroque violin.

It's probably not stretching things to say exactly the same of an F5 in comparison to a bowlback.

Yes, I know that a comparison of a Baroque violin and a modern violin is apples to apples (especially considering that a number of modern violins are modified actual Stradivariuses), whereas the F5 and the bowlback might be thought of oranges and tangerines (sort of similar, but not quite).

Nevertheless, many of the same observations and considerations apply in both comparisons, so it's probably not too much of a stretch to say that the F5 compares to the bowlback like a modern violin compares to a Baroque violin.

Thus, you can say that a bowlback is infinitely expressive within its narrower dynamic range and thinner tone, especially in the hands of a gifted practitioner, and better suited to the playing of Baroque music. But you can't say that its dynamic range is not narrower, and you can't say that its tone is not thinner. Same for the Baroque violin.

One other quick hint for bowlbackers. I've heard many highly respected bowlbackers refer to F5's as being "flat-backed." That's just not true, unless the violin can also be thought of as flat-backed. The F5 has an arched top and an arched back. If you really want the F5 crowd to take you seriously (you may not, actually), then you should show a little interest in their instruments.

[Bob A]

I don't know that I'd say bowlbacks have a thinner tone. My impression is that they produce a much clearer brighter treble tone, whereas the Gibsons, with their thick tops, tend to suppress the treble, but produce a richer bass. Sort of comparing a decent violin with a Tennesee bowed music box. (I hasten to add that I love the sound of the bowed music box). Plumb spang in the middle are the carved Lyon & Healy mandolins, whose plates are thin enough to retain a good deal of the bowlback treble, while providing a better bass response than a bowlback is capable of.

I also hasten to add that it is more or less necessary to hear a quality bowlback in person before you decide whether you like the tone. They are very tricky to record properly.

[Doug Hoople]

I should hasten to add that I love the sound of a good bowlback well played. It's true that they're not as common here in America as in Europe, and so it can be a little hard to find, but it's worth seeking out a performance by a gifted performer in a live setting.

[RSW]

Gee Doug, you haven't hear my 'baroque violin', nor any of my round back mandolins. I have a device to measure decibles, both pre=Gibson type instruments easily equal if not better the so-called 'modern' equivalents The mandolin can easily produce decibel readings up there with Steinway pianos and even a bit more than the violin. I often play with concert grand pianos (opened up fully) and, so far, haven't had to amplify my mandolin to be heard on equal footing. I can't say the same for most of the F-5's I happen on in concert (all amplified). As to the baroque violin, perhaps you're not hearing a good instrument, or it is strung way too lightly or is played apologitically. I live with these instruments (modern versions too including an F-5) and I would stay far from making generalisations. One thing for sure, the dynamic range in the type of music we play is quite extended. I find the modern recording industry's insistance on 'normalizing' music so that you can hear it in your car, for example, with all the noise that goes with it has sort of desensitized the ear to the lower dynamic range, so the modern ear just sort of expects a minimum sound level (provided assistance by GE and wonders of electronics). In terms of 'cream' content in the tone, well... many of the better Vegas, Calace's, Vinaccias, and Emberghers are very rich. Of major importance to the tone factor is the type of pick and pick technique employed. All of this is obvious if you've done some experimenting with higher grade instruments.

[Doug Hoople]

Gee Doug, you haven't hear my 'baroque violin', nor any of my round back mandolins. I have a device to measure decibles, both pre=Gibson type instruments easily equal if not better the so-called 'modern' equivalents The mandolin can easily produce decibel readings up there with Steinway pianos and even a bit more than the violin.

Richard,

If what you're saying is that a thin and piercing high end can penetrate, well that's an acoustical quirk, isn't it, known to anyone who's tried to get some peace riding on a bus with a talkative woman possessed of a high squeaky voice.

But if you're talking about matching volume up and down the frequency spectrum, then I think you're going to have to refine your experiment. It's in the mids and the lows where the dynamic range of the bowlbacks is more limited. I'd be very interested if you've got data the proves otherwise.

That's for the bulk of the bowlbacks that I've heard live, that is, and I've heard some pretty nice Calaces and Pandinis, among others. If you've got a bowlback on steroids that breaks the mold, then I'd be interested in hearing it. The run of them are typically quieter (except at the top end) and richly thin. Or is that thinly rich? You can never be too thin or too rich

The one thing you can say about the f-styles is that the high end is, as Bob has just noted, attenuated and dampened relative to both a flat-top/flat-back and a bowlback.