Post a picture opost a picture of your fake gibson

[Jim Hilburn]

If you ask me, THIS is a real F Scroll.
Courtesy of Darryl Wolfe.

[f5loar]

The days of faking the labels with actual in line serial numbers might be over but there are already 100's out there that by now have been naturally distressed over 30 years and look more like the real thing then you could ever imagine. It's like I tell a lot of those ebay sellers that say they have this when they obviously have that.... get a 2nd opinion when in doubt. Same goes for those of you who might think you have come across a deal on a Loar. It might not be such a good deal when you find out you bought a fake.

[Jim Hilburn]

I've yet to see one of these "convincing" fakes.

[Bernie Daniel]

Adding another dimension to the discussion. #

Where do you place many of the altered Gibsons made 1950's through 1976 (circa)? I am talking here about the F-12's (etc.) that have been converted to pre-war F-5 appearence. #

They are real Gibsons but not real F-5's. #Many of these look absolutely super and sound wonderful too. #These would be potentially very hard to spot I would think.

Concerning the question of owning a "fake" Gibson. #The company can take any "position" it wants but last I heard it does not have its own police force and court system. #

I believe the only crime committed was in making the copy (in fact at the time it was done was it clearly a crime?) and possibly the purchase of the fake by the first owner (not sure about that either). #

Gibson sued Ibanez for their copies not Bill Monroe who owned one.

Besides some of those folks who made F5 copies have since passed away along with the first owners in some cases. #Winning a case against person far down the chain in terms of time and ownership in a court of law would cost much more than it would possibly be worth. #There is a limit even to things lawyers will try.

(I'm not sure about that last part. )

[Jim Hilburn]

I think the conversion F-12's were the first attempt to increase the number of mandolins that had the Loar sound, specifically to get the Monroe sound or at least the bluegrass sound. In the process the secrets of how the instrument was constructed were revealed which led to making them from scratch.
Someone had to do it.

< Gibson sued Ibanez for their copies not Bill Monroe who owned one. >

I didn't know Bill Monroe owned an Ibanez-copy Les Paul guitar. I thought he was pretty much an acoustic type guy.

BTW, the only things on a Gibson F-5 mandolin that Gibson "owns" are the Gibson script logo and the bell-shaped truss rod cover. Gibson did own the patent on the adjustable truss rod but that ran out before WW2.

They don't now and never have owned the scrolls.

[Bernie Daniel]

Neptune: I didn't know Bill Monroe owned an Ibanez-copy Les Paul guitar. I thought he was pretty much an acoustic type guy.

Well I guess there are a lot of things folks don't know about Bill Monroe. #But one thing we do know is that he owned and played an Ibanez F-5 copy. #

I assume that your comment was in jest but if not Gibson also filed suite to stop production of the Ibanez F-5 mandolins did they not?

This was in the late 1970's.

[Gail Hester]

I've had the oportunity to work on several of these copies and while a couple were great sounding mandolins I don't think they would have fooled anyone as being the real deal. #Here is a picture of a great sounding Sargent that we used to own, before it got a makeover.

[cooper4205]

I assume that your comment was in jest but if not Gibson also filed suite to stop production of the Ibanez F-5 mandolins did they not?

This was in the late 1970's.

Gibson didn't sue them over F5 copies.

[Jim Hilburn]

At that point mandolins were still completely off Gibson's (Norlin) radar. Electric guitars was where the action was.

[f5loar]

And those Ibanez copies didn't even look close to a 20's F5. They didn't use the logo name either. As far as the 50's/60's/70's conversions whether it be the F12 or the F5 if it was altered to look like something it's not it's a fake. Anything other than the real thing is a fake.

[Bernie Daniel]

f5loar: And those Ibanez copies didn't even look close to a 20's F5. They didn't use the logo name either. As far as the 50's/60's/70's conversions whether it be the F12 or the F5 if it was altered to look like something it's not it's a fake. Anything other than the real thing is a fake.

Yes they are fake F5's but they cannot be fake Gibsons since they were made there -- I probably should not have even brought the topic up in this thread -- it is an apples and oranges thing.

As to the legal actions of Gibson vs. Ibanez, what did happen then? #I recall a conversation at the Columbus Folk Music Center in Ohio (must have been around 1973) about legal action between the two companies concerning an alleged the violation of some aspect of the F5 mandolin construction. Also sellers of those Ibanez mandolins often offer them as "law-suite" models.

Gibson did not sue Ibanez or any other Japanese company over mandolins of any kind. They didn't. It didn't happen. Sellers often refer to any instrument made in Japan in the 1970s as "lawsuit" instruments. They do that either from their own ignorance or hoping to profit from the ignorance of potential buyers.

The lawsuits were about the electric guitars being imported at the time.

Gibson has yet to attempt to take a counterfeit instrument from an individual through the courts. That doesn't mean they will never try, it only means they have not done so yet. They did file suit against a retailer and forced that retailer to buy a counterfeit banjo back. I guess that comes pretty close to taking an instrument away from a private owner.

[Bluegrass Boy]

I recently was in a jam with Nugget #1, which as a Gibson copy, complete with Gibson logo and flowerpot. Cool old instrument.

[Bernie Daniel]

Neptune: Gibson did not sue Ibanez or any other Japanese company over mandolins of any kind. They didn't. It didn't happen. Sellers often refer to any instrument made in Japan in the 1970s as "lawsuit" instruments.

Thanks for the infomation and clairification. Sounds like the Gibson "mandolin lawsuit" is essentially a urban legend then.

[MikeEdgerton]

Thanks for the infomation and clairification. #Sounds like the Gibson "mandolin lawsuit" is essentially a urban legend then.

Bernie, This is a recent thread that contains a link to the lawsuit story.

[Jim Hilburn]

When Kendrick Amplifiers of Austin decided to make a guitar called "Pearly Gates" after Billy Gibbon's famous burst Gibson "persuaded" them to change some features including the body shape. I don't think they felt like going to court over it.

[Spruce]

"At that point mandolins were still completely off Gibson's (Norlin) radar. Electric guitars was where the action was."

Yeah, Gibson really nailed those electrics back then, didn't they....

[mrmando]

Here's a Gibson copy that wasn't very good ... but even Gibson thought it was a Gibson!

[Gutbucket]

What the.....?

[sides7]

I purchased this mandolin in the 1970's new. it was called a "Kopt Kat" as is a copy of the 1970's Gibson F-5. It took it a long time to open up, but seems to getting better every day. It is definatly a keeper. Craftsmanship is vey good and it's a very structurally sound instrument. I will never part with it.
Sides7 below is another couple of pictures

[dirty harry]

None of the Replica's I have scene on the Cafe look very good. Save one!
Enter the lesson. #If one builds an exact replica Master Model Loar, it will fool almost everyone.
Just ask Gruhn............
Many are called few are frozen....... # #or Chosen

# #

[woodwizard]

A 1970 Gibson I'm told is a bad Gibson example to copy. I had one once with the fancy inlays on the fretboard. They sold for about 1499.00 in 1970. I gave $1500 in 1980 for it and sold it in 1990 for $1500. Seemed like the back wood on any of those were all sort of plane jane.

[wantaloar]

I recently was in a jam with Nugget #1, which as a Gibson copy, complete with Gibson logo and flowerpot. Cool old instrument.

If you looked inside that Nugget #1 you will see a label that states that it is a Gibson copy with Mike's signature. That mandolin was never made to be passed off as a genuine Gibson. And oh yeah it sounds great, even better when the owner plays it.