Allen vs. james tailpiece

[Kbone]

It's hard to beat the * James* tailpiece....

[Mike Bunting]

I settled on the James after using the other types. I hate poking the strings through holes on the Allen style and catching my hand on the little pointy things that stick out the end to hook strings on the Price style t-p's.

[Nick Triesch]

I would really like to put on a James tailpiece on my Weber fern but I hear that they will not fit and I would have to fill and redrill. This bums me out. I wish the mandolin world would make a standard hole pattern. I like the Weber tailpiece but the James is very cool and looks like a fast string change. Nick

[Hans]

I see no design flaw in the James T/P. It flat out works. Once the strings are installed, the O rings stay put...kinda like bridges.
The Gibson hole pattern would seem to be the standard. The James fits.

[pickloser]

Yesterday evening I used the leather piece off a guitar strap (meant to tie to a headstock if there's no button), and no overtones. What a relief. That was the most annoying noise, and it seemed to begin to really drone everytime I practiced the DUD DUD on Irish Washerwoman. It seems my mad rush to replace the tailpiece was an attempt to cure a cold with a sledgehammer.

Thank you Jamie for that look at the Hamlett TP. Quite striking. On the website I couldn't tell how the strings hooked up.

Now I guess I'm off to the search function to look at what you all have had to say about better bridges and bone nuts. There's so much to learn--in addition to the scales and arpeggios and fiddle tunes. And what is it about this instrument that makes you want to "soup it up." I think I have been infected with early stage MAS, which is presenting as a desire to re-accessorize my Eastman.

People say it here a lot, but it's true. What a helpful bunch of folks. Thank you.

[evanreilly]

Like most everything else in America, a mandolin can be 'pimped' or hot-rodded. Tailpieces are a good example of the parts that can be interchanged. I have two James TPs and consider them the best.
I do have a piece of leather under the leading edge of the cover on one mandolin to dampen the overtones, tho.

[Glassweb]

Well, I've spoken to at least a few mandolinists who do find the James tailpiece a wonderful design - except for the rubber rings. I don't know about everyone else, but there are times that I do need to remove all the strings from my mandolin and this is when the rings pop out. I don't care so much that they pop out... it's getting them back in that's the problem...

[JEStanek]

Pick Loser,
The accessory I would most like to try out is an arm rest. They are clamps like on a violin chin rest with a shaped peice of wood that fixes itself on the bass side of the tailpiece area. It keeps your forearm off the top and that sharp edge. I'm looking mostly for comfort reasons. Some folks have reported issues with the feet of the clamps marring their finish but the folks who have removed them b/c they didn't like them was much smaller than those who posted they enhance the playing experience.

Here are some threads on armrests.

Jamie

[mandroid]

for retaining that rubber ring, try gluing it in.

[Roydw3]

I love my James tailpiece

[GRW3]

I had a 515 that would whine until I ran a piece of yarn through the strings between the bridge and the tailpiece. Interestingly, I reduced the action and the problem went away, no yarn needed now.

[david blair]

Glued the O rings (James) in with super glue during the first install. Never had to think about it since!
I use a leather strip with my James for dampening, but nothing with another ebony tailpiece. The James is heavier than the $13.00 one like Bill used, and added longer sustain.
So, does anyone wonder why some tailpiece are designed with a longer side to the bass and some longer towards the treble? In the violin world they recommend 1/6 of total scale length as the string length from tailpiece to bridge, and tune the overtones with the endpin adjuster cable.

[sunburst]

Standard modern mandolin scale length is 13 7/8".
1/6 of that is around 2.3". A mandolin tailpiece that would give you an afterlength of 2.3" would be a long tailpiece. It would be heavier than a similarly constructed shorter tailpiece, and closer to the bridge, and might act more as mute to increase sustain at the expense of loudness. It would have to be either a "floating" design, similar to a violin tailpiece, or a longer-than-"standard" piece of metal. A longer piece of metal would certainly look different than what we're used to seeing, and it would offer more leverage to the screws holding it on if pushed to the side, up, or down.

Violins are played with a bow most of the time, so the notes can be sustained for a long time. The afterlength of the strings and the proximity or the tailpiece to the bridge apparently make a contribution to what we hear when a violin is played.
Mandolins are usually played with a pick, and the notes are of relatively short duration. The afterlength of the strings tends to contribute to the ringing "overtones" that we hear after the relatively short note. Most players seem to not want to hear anything ringing after the note, and I'm not sure the ringing being a different pitch would make them more accepting of it.

I considered the idea of taking afterlength into account when I was designing my tailpiece, and concluded it was impractical to make a simply designed tailpiece that long. I also thought about adding some sort of string damping feature, but decided against that in favor of simplicity. I didn't want wear points or moving parts. I also figured mandolin players will damp the strings to suit themselves, so I'd leave it to the player to choose how.

So, from all that, I've concluded that the length of string from bridge to the tailpiece is a "necessary evil". There's no particular "right" length, so it might as well be an aesthetically pleasing length, and players are usually going to damp the strings anyway, regardless of the length. That also leads me to the conclusion that there is nothing to be gained by having different lengths for different strings.

One more thing. The ringing of the string lengths between the bridge and tailpiece, and between the nut and tuners isn't really heard by people other than the player and studio microphones. It's really not very loud, and at a distance, or in a jam or a band other people don't usually hear it at all.

[jim_n_virginia]

To solve the overtone problem get a Weber "Wood Nymph" it's made out of wood and looks a lot better than a piece of leather or those rubber grommets that move all over the place and pop out sometimes.

I have had one for years and it works great and I like it a lot.

http://www.soundtoearth.com/prod_woodnymph.htm

[Nick Triesch]

I know that Weber told me that there is no mandolin tailpiece standard and that weber is different, but has anyone out there ever installed a James tailpiece to a Weber F type with no problem with the holes? Thanks, Nick

[Desert Rat]

I'm a flat-out newby when it comes to the mandolin, but for the life of me, I can't understand the complaining about string changes with an Eastman tailpiece. #It's bonehead simple: Thread the straight end of the string through the end of the tailpiece with your right hand, grab the end as it emerges from under the tailpiece and pull it through till the loop is near the pin. #Using the thumb/thumbnail of your right hand, push the loop down over the pin until it "clicks" into place. #It will be held there by the outward spring-tension of the loop while you attach the straight end to the machine post. #No tools or special moving parts needed.

I've changed strings four times since I bought my 515 this Fall, each time was fast and simple. #What about this am I supposed to find so difficult?

[Mike Bunting]

I'm a flat-out newby when it comes to the mandolin, but for the life of me, I can't understand the complaining about string changes with an Eastman tailpiece.

I believe that the debate is about the relative merits of the Allen and James tailpieces.

[MikeEdgerton]

Using the thumb/thumbnail of your right hand, push the loop down over the pin until it "clicks" into place. It will be held there by the outward spring-tension of the loop while you attach the straight end to the machine post. No tools or special moving parts needed.

I've changed strings four times since I bought my 515 this Fall, each time was fast and simple. What about this am I supposed to find so difficult?

Actually it will pop out quite easily if you put any backwards pressure on it and that can happen easily. Your technique is to be admired but don't assume everyone is as bright or dexterous as you are, we aren't. It's not that it can't be done, I've changed strings on my mandolin on stage while the band continued to play. Given my choice I simply pop my little fifty-cent magnet over the loop and don't worry about that end. Your blessed to have achieved this level on enlightenment on string changes in such a short amount of time, keep up the good work.

[Desert Rat]

Given my choice I simply pop my little fifty-cent magnet over the loop and don't worry about that end. Your blessed to have achieved this level on enlightenment on string changes in such a short amount of time, keep up the good work.

Thanks. I'll remember your magnet trick if I ever run into problems. It's a far cleaner and more elegant solution than using a capo or fastening moving parts to an object that has as its sole purpose the creation of vibrations.

[Desert Rat]

I believe that the debate is about the relative merits of the Allen and James tailpieces.

You might want to re-read paragraph one of the original post.

[mythicfish]

Dear Brother Rat ... The discussion board is full of "stuff" from folks who think that any effort (physical or mental) can and should be eliminated by something they can buy.

[Nick Triesch]

If there is a tailpiece or any other mandolin part that works better for the player then there is nothing wrong with using it. I love my Weber but I do not like the tailpiece. The James gets rave reviews for its ease in changing the strings by closing the door. Cool idea! I want one!! Nick

[Sheryl McDonald]

By the way, when changing strings on your Eastman or Weber slide the string envelope down between the top and the tailpiece and slide the string in without scratching the mandolin.

Hey Mike--

That's a great tip. I realized there would be something needed for string changing on my Weber, but I hadn't thought about using the envelope.

Thanks.

[pickloser]

I'm no "bonehead." I may give the Rat an edge in dexterity, but I think I'm probably brighter, having so far avoided express or implied insults in any of my posts. Thank you Mike for gracefully noting that mere humans have different gifts. When DR gets 50 year old eyes, lets see how easily those tiny little loops cooperate with him or her. My string changing ability was probably also hampered by the sheer adrenalin-charged excitement of a new, beautiful instrument that I had just brought home. Thanks to advice from this thread, I think my next string change will go much more smoothly.

I'm personally too cheap to spend $75 to $150 to make string changing easier. But if a new tailpiece had additional tonal benefits or cost significantly less, I'd be on it. And I see no reason to have a quarrel with those who would spend their own hard-earned money (or even inherited money or even ill gotten gains) just because they like the looks of a different tailpiece.

As I noted in an earlier post, I think I was essentially suffering from early onset MAS, which was manifesting as a desire to "soup up" my mandolin in some way. I took Jamie's advice and bought an armrest from Doug Edwards (who was exceptionally nice to deal with). He's running a sale on existing stock. Since I only paid $20 for the armrest, I guess I can afford the fuzzy dice to hang off my peghead. It will look good with the leather I have threaded thru the strings between the tailpiece and the bridge. (Overtone problem solved.)

Laura

[sunburst]

Thanks for that post, Laura.