Ibanez in the 70's

[futrconslr]

My Takamine F-363S indeed has the Martin style gold script on the headstock, which is shaped on top similar to the Gibson style but bolder, and a specially shaped bridge.

Compared it with a few Martins of similar vintage years ago, and found the construction virtually identical.

It differs from a Martin in neatness of construction detail in terms of preparation before finishing, but is well finished. Inlay and binding well done, tiny bit of color/filler noticeable at (white)binding end seams. Bracing and components internally all neat and well made. The spruce top and rosewood sides and back all nice quality 70's wood.

It sounds great; especially after all the years of playing. A Martin in the same class/age would be of similar (or a bit more select)material and construction quality, but would be impeccably finished from any aspect. Purchased for $350. way back when; it is almost freakish how much it is worth now...that is why I held on to it. Mike is right...no lawsuit, just a good copy.

Sorry no mando content

I have one as well. I have had more than one setup guy have to look twice when I opened the case.

[acousticphd]

if it looks like this one, $500 would be pretty fair (I'd try and get them a little lower,maybe $400-450)

There were/are two or three models that differed cosmetically, and maybe also in wood specs (?). # The one Cooper showed was, I believe, the nicest Ibanez 2-pt oval hole model. #(Was that a 524?) This is the only model that, imo, would approach a $500 value. # The lesser models all seemed to have the solid black painted neck, and appeared to be the identical instrument whether branded Ibanez, Suzuki (or Ventura). #Some of the Ibanez instruments even have a tailpiece cover with the Suzuki "S" logo, so there was pretty obviously a close connection. #I have the Suzuki version, I think labeled M300 or maybe M200.

These are not really all that rare, either - If you search, there have been several past threads on Ibanez and Suzuki 2-pt oval hole mandolins, and there was another Ventura that just sold on ebay (for nowhere near $500.) I would look for ~$300-$350. Which also means I paid a little too much for mine, but I thought it looked kitschy-kool and really plays quite well.

[Desert Rose]

This may help add some clarity to the discussion

Ibanez instruments ALL Ibanez instruments made in Japan whether banjos mandolins George Benson jazz guitars or all the electric guitars were and still are made at one factory only, Fujigen here in Matsumoto Japan. The instruments, mandolins and banjos were marketed under two names Ibanez and for the Japanese market Bluebell

Fujigen made NO other acoustic instruments, Ventura and Suzuki or any other are not and never have been related to Ibanez or Fujigen in any way in business

From 1990 to 2001 I worked as an engineer in R and D and Quality Control at Fujigen and continue to have a business relation with Fujigen and Ibanez

Scott

[cooper4205]

Jeff-

That old Ibanez I had was called the 522, and you're right it was the highest level two-point oval hole they made. It had a solid spruce top and solid maple back and sides, and 5-ply binding around the sound hole. Like I said, $500 (or less) wouldn't be too bad for the 522, but for not for the 513 (the one with the neck painted black and the painted on rosette). Here's the back of my old 522

[acousticphd]

This may help add some clarity to the discussion
Ibanez instruments ALL Ibanez instruments made in Japan whether banjos mandolins George Benson jazz guitars or all the electric guitars were and still are made at one factory only, Fujigen here in Matsumoto Japan. The instruments, mandolins and banjos were marketed under two names Ibanez and for the Japanese market Bluebell
Fujigen made NO other acoustic instruments, Ventura and Suzuki or any other are not and never have been related to Ibanez or Fujigen in any way in business
From 1990 to 2001 I worked as an engineer in R and D and Quality Control at Fujigen and continue to have a business relation with Fujigen and Ibanez

Scott,
That's some interesting background, thanks. I sure would have thought otherwise. I don't remember if you contributed some information to some of the earlier Suzuki/Ibanez threads. It sure does appear though that some of the Ibanez and Suzuki instrument models are flat-out identical (except for the logo and lables), right down to the tuners, through-slotted nuts (like on a Fender electric), and details of body shapes, , etc. There must have been some sort of shared use of the designs, at least?

Here's a pic of my Suzuki, again, for comparison.

[Andrew Faltesek]

Another bit of info...
When I bought my Takamine, conversations with the dealer indicated that Martin had worked with the Takamine company(Japan, established in the 60's) to produce quality versions of D-28's(i.e. my f363s) and other models which were to be the Sigma line. Kaman corp.(who produce Ovation) aquired Takamine, and Martin then switched to another company to produce the Sigma line guitars.

Takamine produced the models under their name, built with high quality, but other than a letter from Martin, no lawsuit was initiated. The headstock was changed a bit to a variation of the Gibson design, later dropping the Martin old-style decal lettering, then Takamine went on to develop early acoustic/electric instruments.

The Takamine guitars of 70's vintage are well constructed units made with select woods and careful construction...think of 70's Nikon Nikkormat and F2 cameras with Nikor lenses of high quality, produced by Japanese craftsmen with a high dedication to quality and honor to work ethic. Optics, like instruments, require skill beyond manufacturing specs, in other words, art.

[MikeEdgerton]

There might be a disconnect in years here. I think you'll find the Takamine Martin copies were a decade or two or three before the Sigmas. The Martin Shenandoah line preceded the Sigma's but were components built in Japan and assembled in the US in an attempt to keep the Made in USA label on the guitar. They would be closer in age to the Martin style Takamines but still maybe 10 years apart.

[mrkrgr]

In 1983 I bought a Ibanez 517 in Hawaii for 250.00. Solid top Laminated sides, A style. Just a little info as to what they cost new.

[Joe Mendel]

My first mandolin was an Alvarez that looked exactly like the Ibanez in question, except that it said Alvarez on the headstock. It was a good starter, and may actually have been a decent instrument under the 3/32" thick finish. I have no idea what factory it was made in, it did have a sticker that said "Made in Japan."

[DerTiefster]

There are two threads in this thread. One is about the two-point Ibanez mandolin the O.P. mentioned, and the other is about "lawsuit" guitars following a direction that the O.P. mentioned in connection with a story someone told about his -mandolin-.

The Ibanez company seems to be happy to have folks look at their old catalogs. I found these links a while back while looking for info about two-point mandolins. These are apparently made patterned after the Gibson A-5 two-point mandolin of the '60s. Various posts report that in the '70s they were made at a particular factory in Japan, commonly with solid or plywood tops for different models, and that later versions made in Korea had generally plywood construction.

The Ibanez catalog resource I found is
http://www.ibanez.co.jp/anniversary/
look at the '70s catalogs, mandolin 1976, and then p.2 to see the 513 and 522 versions. Here is the direct image from ibanez web-site:
http://www.ibanez.co.jp/anniversary/13/2.jpg
Both say "solid top" and both give (in that catalog for that year) only a color for the back and sides. Absent a solid wood claim, I suspect plywood back/sides. I've seen a 1976 Epiphone BG-440 of the same shape with solid top and plywood back/sides. The back looks convincingly like a 2-piece solid back because of the central seam, but if you look inside, there are two seams and it looks like a well-centered 3-piece back. So it's a plywood back. I'm confident the sides were also plywood on that one. Although I can't dispute the earlier poster's contention that his 522 had solid back and sides, it looks suspect from my vantage point.

One poster on another of the two-point related threads said he had attempted to refinish his Aria 2-pointer and found in destroying it (Oh! my! better luck next time...) that it was plywood topped. I think some of these Japanese and Korean mandos were plywood topped. One thread discussing the Aria version is http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=13145
Another is http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=24171

More info on various two-pointers at this time, including Ibanez (I think) is contained in
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=54710

They look like the Epiphone BG-440 that I can't find in the search function even though I personally have made reference to them in various posts. Ah! here is one
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=36072
I think they don't show up in "search" because the BG-440 splits into two too-short to be valid search strings. Admins?

[Rockville847]

I have what I was told is a late 70's early 80's Ibanez Mandolin. It has a label that says it is a Model 513. I does not match the picture of the 513 in the catalog, nor does it match the description given by someone in an earlier post. It has what looks like solid back and sides and the neck is not painted black. I bought from a store that deals mainly in vintage instruments. They told me this model is becoming mildly desirable to collectors. Any comments would be appreciated.

[DerTiefster]

If you go to the 1980 mandolin catalog on the co.jp page I listed above, you can find the page
http://www.ibanez.co.jp/anniversary/326/1.jpg
On it you'll see your 513 and a more-exaggerated 529 which are the "lump scroll" analogs of the Gibson mandolin of similar design, I think sometimes called an F12 or A12. I've seen one of the Gibson versions on ebay (multiple times) in the past year.

Apparently Ibanez was no more immune to re-using model numbers than Gibson. Gibson had multiple A-5 models, none resembling the other particularly strongly.

[fishtownmike]

The first time I ever heard anything about "lawsuit" instruments, it was the Takamine "lawsuit D-28" an amazing copy with gold script name on the headstock, really would fool at any distance past a foot.
But there was never a lawsuit by Martin...

A cease and desist letter was sent from Martin to Takamine and they did obey it and changed the design so no lawsuit was necessary.

[Rockville847]

Mystery solved. Thanks for the info.

[wamjr52]

I recently bought a very simular two point Aria through an estate sale, a 1976. It looked great and sounded fair. The finger rest had been removed but was in the case. I sent it to Big Joe for a set-up and a tone guard. Wow, did Big Joe put the mojo on it, It barks and chops great, even without a scroll she'll hoe her own row. Had several F5 pickers come over to see it at and pick it at the last two outings. I don't think that it was ever in a lawsuit but its still a good mandolin.

[DerTiefster]

Aria and El Degas are the only names I've seen on f-hole two-pointers. Is your Aria an oval-hole or f-hole instrument? There are nice pics of an El Degas in Canada from cafe member Cary Fagan on this thread:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=57999
I also saw a rosewood-backed Madeira on ebay last year that had f-holes. I think I posted a pic of it on a two-pointer thread, too. Post 28 of this thread:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=57999

[wamjr52]

Michael, mine is an f hole, It looks like the picture you posted, except for the color, mine has more of a red tint.

[Flattpicker]

I had always thought the Takamine copies of the Martins were not solid wood. My wife has an old Takamine D-28 copy with the gold script logo, and it's not in the same league with any solid wood guitar I can think of. I'm sure the top is solid, but I doubt the back/sides are.

Suzuki did make some guitars that were marketed in Europe under another name: 3S
I had one, solid top only, and it was okay, better than the Suzuki guitars that appeared in the US a few years later.

It's my understanding that Fender brought suit against Tokai and ESP for their very good strat copies in the early 80's, but perhaps that's also an urban myth. Tokai changed their headstock to please Fender in the matter.