New roman instruments

[cayuga red]

Does anyone know if Lippi mandolins as well as any of the other new mandolins listed on this thread are available for purchase in the US? I started a thread elsewhere on the message board asking about the great classical mandolin builders and have been following the responses to that question with great interest.

Thank you.

Red

[Eugene]

There are a couple features of Roman instruments you should try before committing. They have a very pronounced "V" neck profile, a very narrow fingerboard, and a very pronounced radius to the fingerboard.

[Eugene]

PS: These instruments tend to be custom built. I'm certain you could order almost any of them into the US, but they don't have anything like a mass-produced, Michael Kelly-like distribution.

[cayuga red]

Thank you Eugene. From what I've learned, I knew these were not factory-built instruments. I was wondering whether any of the foreign-based builders sold their mandolins through US shops or agents.

Red.

[Jim Garber]

Thank you Eugene. From what I've learned, I knew these were not factory-built instruments. I was wondering whether any of the foreign-based builders sold their mandolins through US shops or agents.

None that I know of. I don't think there is all that much interest in quality bowlbacks in the US, sad to say. Few stores are willing to carry a decent selection of mandolins and bowlbacks are in the serious minority.

If you are serious, tho, it could be a good excuse for a European trip. I am sure that some of us bowlheads on either side of the pnd can help you plan your itinerary.

[vkioulaphides]

If you are asking whether you can actually go to some (hypothetical) music store in the U.S. and see --and, most importantly, try-- quality European bowlbacks for yourself, the answer is unfortunately a plain "no".

If, on the other hand, you are simply asking whether such instruments can be ordered from the U.S., well... of course! (That is, after all, how I got my Calace, about to turn 4 next month. )

Eugene's point is salient: I know people who admit they simply CANnot play Roman instruments, especially due to those SUPER-narrow fingerboards-- I cannot argue for, or against other people's preferences. I would second Eugene's word of caution...

Best of luck with your quest.

Cheers,

Victor

[cayuga red]

Jim and Victor: Thank you both for your good advice. Jim, I have family in Florence, Italy so that would be my starting point. If I had, say 3 or 4 days to do some mando-related visits, who would you recommend I see and where in Italy are they located?
Regards,

Red

[cayuga red]

Re my last post, I should add that I'd want to try bowl-backs not necessarily limited to one particular style of bowl-back.
Thanks again.

[vkioulaphides]

Well... Pandini is closer, i.e. in Northern Italy. Most mandolins, however, would be at the opposite end of the peninsula, particularly in Naples— a looooooooooooong trip, made even more so by the *ahem* less than perfectly efficient Italian railways.

Still, Naples is THE place. Before anything, I would try to contact Messrs Pandini, Lippi and (if the trip south is at all possible) Calace. Fellow Café denizens can surely hook you up with the appropriate addresses, phone numbers, etc.

Cheers,

Victor

[Acquavella]

Hi Alex,

Do you have the contact details for Takusari? Nigel Woodhouse (UK) plays one that he bought ages ago. It sounded really good and very true to the original Emberghers. I believe Takusari is the luthier who inherited the original molds. I originally wanted to get one of his instruments but couldn't find his contact details anywhere. I also really like the look of Hendrik van den Broek's 5bis. How does it play in comparison to Embergher 5bis? Thanks for this post.

Chris

[vkioulaphides]

"I believe Takusari is the luthier who inherited the original molds."

Yes, I remember (vaguely, at least) that Takusari "inherited" much of the critical equipment of the Embergher shop from Pecoraro. But, of course, Alex can speak much more definitively on such matters than can I.

I have not, however, seen/heard any of Takusari's instruments in person, nor even OF any relatively recent instrument of his. Henk is simply brilliant... I would LOVE to hear his "clone"!

Remind me, Chris: don't you play a creature of the Lippi/Roman consortium yourself? Or have I got it all confused, yet again? Heady stuff for a hack like me...

Cheers,

Victor

[Acquavella]

Hi Victor,

Yes, I play a 5bis made by Nuova Liuteria Romana. It's Marco Onorati's company based in Rome. Cecconi did all of the wood work which is great. I am really happy with the instrument. I'm asking about the Takusari instrument...well mostly because MAS is getting the better of me. I have such a soft spot for these Roman instruments. Hendrik's is definitely on my list of interest. From the pic, the mandolin looks brilliant. I would love to hear one in person. Cheers.

Chris

[Jim Garber]

And the 5 bis Roman concert mandolin recently made by Hendrik van den Broek.

Surfing for something else I found Henrik's Web site.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all,

I thought it would be nice to share the developments on the re-birth of the Roman mandolin making with you and also bring new life to this wonderful and most important topic.

Next week mr. Lorenzo Lippi, master luthier from Milano, will come to Zwolle to bring the three concert mandolins he made for my students. These instruments - two of them build after Luigi Embergher's No. 5bis concert models and one made after a concert model No. 5 - are copies of original Embergher concert mandolins made in the period 1920-29.
By viewing the photos mr. Lippi send me you can see that from the outside the instruments look like exact copies of Embergher's originals. Knowing that the inside is also build with great care ánd exactly in the stile of the original examples I am almost sure that they will sound as good as they look!

You probably can imagine that we here in Zwolle, are all very excited about mr. Lippi's outstanding work and that we look forward to meet him and be able to play his mandolins next week.


Cheers for now, have a look at the photos below, and I'll keep you updated,

Alex.

[vkioulaphides]

GORGEOUS!!!

Now... where did I put my passport?

Congratulations to Sr. Lippi, Alex himself, and his MOST fortunate students.

Cheers,

Victor

[Arto]

Many thanks for Alex for this wonderful update!

Lippi, Liuteria Romana and Broeck have all links to their websites from Mandolin Cafe´s Eye Candy page. Unfortunately Sr Lippi´s is not very useful - no English, and not any special mention about him making Embergher copies?

Have I understood right - Lippi and Liuteria Romana are both making Embergher copies, no connection between them? Does Carlo Cecconi make the Liuteria Romana mandolins?

I agree it would be very interesting to know more about Mr Takusari... But I very much doubt the prices would be much higher than thought in some previous post. Japanese handcraft artists are expensive - I saw somewhere that a new biwa made by a good luthier would cost something around 10000 USD. Surely there´s much more market (and makers) for mandolins than biwas, but an Embergher-style mandolin is vastly more complicated instrument to make than a biwa.

It´s great that more and more high-class Embergher-style mandolins are made these days, and people like Alex are SO valuable in promoting this. Owning an original Embergher 5bis would be financially impossible for most people, and besides it doesn´t feel good to think of one in a collector´s vault or in hands of a mediocre amateur like myself - these belong to real musicians and thus to be enjoyed by their listeners, too. A thought of owning a modern one for one´s own pleasure does not produce guilt...

Arto

[Jim Garber]

Does Carlo Cecconi make the Liuteria Romana mandolins?

As far as I know, Sr. Cecconi has nothing to do with making of those mandolins. Marco has only informed me that they are made by a consortium of luthiers. That is all that is revealed.

The only people I know of who have these mandolins are Chris Aquavella and Sonia Maurer (Marco's wife). I have not heard any reviews from Chris as to the quality of workmanship and sound of those.

[Jim Garber]

Having been a denizen of the Cafe for sometime. I have seen many beautiful photos of various mandolins, Loar copies and the like. Some of the photography is truly breathtaking. People are so very polite here and I do not mean to demena the work of any luthier but what I would love to hear would be a truly honest assessment of these beautiful instruments in comparison with what these luthiers are attempting to copy.

Alex, you are in the perfect position to give us that assessment. Would it be possible for you and your players to truly honestly assess the quality of sound and playability as compared to the works from the Embergher atelier. Certainly, if Sr. Lippi's works are equal to or surpass Embergher's then players would rejoice in the fact that they don't have to mortgage their house to get a new instrument. Or is there still a maturity or something else that is needed in these new instruments. Can we have a true AB test with some of the vintage Emberghers in your orchestra?

Sorry to be cynical, but I have played a few of the truly beautiful works from displayed in other areas of the Cafe and have been sorely disappointed with many of them. Cosmetics might be perfect but the true test is the sound. projection and playability.

My intent is not to denigrate any luthier's work, but to avoid the "here's today's Stradivari" syndrome, before it it viable.

[Bob A]

As much as I too would like to read an independent eval of the new vs old instruments, I it would be a difficult proposition.

First there's the whole idea of comparing something made last month to something made in 1920. Then setup issues arise: has the instrument in question been maximised for sound/playability, or is it "as found"? How about the player factor, when someone used to his own instrument and its quirks picks up a totally strange mandolin. Then there are interpersonal issues: will Luthier X wax wroth if his creation is dissed in public? How will that affect the situation regarding providing more instruments. Or perhaps personal and personality clashes which could skew reports.

This sort of thing has been going on continuously in the violin world, with no consensus so far, and none expected in this world or the next. I suspect it will come down to a player's individual taste and preference (as always), unless a given maker is producing a real dog, in which case the market will eliminate him from contention.

Although there's always contention, seems like. Else why would this board exist?

All that said, I eagerly await the word, strictly as an onlooker, already swamped with too many mandolins and too little time or talent.

[Jim Garber]

Agreed, Bob, up to a point. I think constructive criticism is what is needed for luthiers. Personally i would prefer an instrument that sounds like a vintage Embergher than one that looks like one. I would prefer one with less than pristine workmanship to one that sounds and projects well. I think it is a service to luthiers to give them something to work towards. Just my 2 euros.

[Arto]

As much as I would LOVE to see a critical comparison, I´m sure Bob has very good points above. Comparing the situation in violin world was thought provoking - I know nothing about that world, but surely the question "who is making modern violins closest to Stradivari" will remain unanswered.

I think comparing modern Embergher copies to each other would be easier to carry out than comparing original vs modern, but this would still be very difficult. And if I think of myself in Alex´s position, having been working together with both Mr Lippi and Mr Broeck, I would not want to answer "who´s better?". Besides, both luthiers are producing new mandolins and probably learning more all the time - who knows how their instruments will be in five years? In ten years?

[Jim Garber]

Just to interject one more observation here. Yes, I would accept the proposition that aging and playing in an instrument makes a difference, but do bear in mind that these Emberghers and Strads were at one point bought as brand new instruments and were considered at the time to be among the best there is. My humble point here is: do these contemporary copies stand up to the same quality as what they are copying?

I do believe that it is not only fair but sensible to compare the work of contemporary instruments with what they are copying. In the Loar F5 copy world there are certainly a few makers who have not only equaled but surpassed the quality of what they are copying and these instruments are often fresh off the luthier's bench.

I certainly accept the fact that there may be no real way of determining but direct experience of each of us. However, I say, let us certainly praise the beauty of these photos and the quality of the workmanship that is evident thru the photos. However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating (I think that is the saying) and before I plop down my $4000-5000 euros, I would want to be sure that I was getting something that was to be an ultra-fine instrument, esp if I were a professional player. otherwise, I would stick to the known quantity and put that money in the bank until I could afford the real thing.

So, yes, what I am asking is probably impossible from a number of points of view and I really don't want to put Alex (or the luthiers) in that untenable position. if nothing else, tho, I do want us all to think in terms of what we are looking for in the ultimate instrument, whether we are rank amateurs like myself or highly skilled professionals. I think we owe it to ourselves, the music as well as to the potential makers of our beloved instrument.

[vkioulaphides]

...otherwise, I would stick to the known quantity and put that money in the bank until I could afford the real thing.

But... you do have the "real thing", Jim! You are the (happy, I hope) owner of IMHO one of the loveliest, best built, best kept, best sounding (Embergher) Model A's I, for one, have EVER come across!

So... why not put the requisite (and certainly not vast) dosage of currency-of-choice into getting that instrument ~just~ the way you like it? After all —and this, spoken by one with an unashamed "player bias"— the "pudding" is the playing, no?

Cheers to one and all.

Victor

P.S. After said adjustment(s), you may wish to head south, for duets + nosh at Ye Local Hellenic Diner.

[Jim Garber]

If you note, Victor, my phrasing in the conditional tense:

before I plop down my $4000-5000 euros, I would want to be sure that I was getting something that was to be an ultra-fine instrument

I am all for these folks building these replicas but before we get all whoozy looking at photos of these undeniably beautiful instruments, I would like to be sure that we are not just looking at rote models of instruments but excellent instruments in their own right. I am getting older and more curmudgeoney, of course.

And, of course, I do intend to get that Embergher in playing shape if I can find a person in the area I would trust to fine tune it. All that does not preclude playing some notes and sharing some Hellenic food.

[margora]

A few years ago I had the opportunity to play an Embergher 5bis, albeit very (very) briefly. Last summer I had the opportunity to play very (very) briefly a Lippi mandola owned by a member of Het Consort (I heard the Lippi extensively, since I sat next to said mandolist). Based on this admittedly extremely small sample and with the obvious caveat that I am comparing apples (mandolin) to oranges (mandola) I'd pick the Lippi. Less expensive, won't break.