New roman instruments

[Acquavella]

In regards to old and new......it depends on the person and instrument. My friend, Jeremy, who is principle bassist of the San Diego Symphony, perfers to play a NEW bass. He states that the level of luthiery skill for basses has changed over the years and that new basses are better than older ones.

My opinion....if you are looking for an Embergher......you should do anything in your power to get the original. Mortgage your home, sell your car...etc. I play a modern Embergher 5bis because I won an award that only paid for NEW instruments. If I had the money to get an original I would definitely go for it. The one benefit that I have found from playing a modern 5bis is that I don't have some of the tuning problems or foibles that I've seen from older instruments. I don't have to worry that much about the instrument getting beat up from playing 6 hours a day and touring. It can easily be replaced if something happens. An original Embergher can not be easily replaced if something happens. Thats my 2 cents.

I am happy with my instrument, even if I envy Alison for hers. :-)

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi all,

First I'd like to respond on Arto's questions (Quote: Have I understood right - Lippi and Liuteria Romana are both making Embergher copies, no connection between them? Does Carlo Cecconi make the Liuteria Romana mandolins?
I agree it would be very interesting to know more about Mr. Takusari...) with these remarks:

Indeed the Liuteria Romana and Maestro Lorenzo Lippi and are both making Embergher copies, but do not have any connection or exchange of info on the making of Roman mandolins. Personally I know of Chris' Roman mandolin (that once was played by Sonia Maurer) and another one that I was fortunate to examine and play a bit in 2006 at the Convention held in the honor of the 150th birthday of Luigi Embergher in Arpino, Italy. At that particular occasion I met one of the luthiers of Marco Onorati's team responsible for the making of their Roman style mandolins.
Talking to this woman and to Marco it became clear to me that they were not particular concerned in making exact copies after original examples of the Luigi Embergher models. Something that was already obvious to me by the example they had brought with them to show to the people at the Embergher convention. This mandolin, a nicely made and well sounding instrument, was certainly build in the Roman style but lacked the outward appearance of an Embergher (a Cerrone or even a Pecoraro) mandolin. But it was Roman in design and a mandolin with a good sound.

About Arto’s 2nd question, whether Mr. Cecconi is involved in this all, I can only say that this is not very clear; I believe he is and from a reply by Chris Aquavella to this topic (see an earlier post by Chris on page one or so) I got the impression that Chris thinks or has been told that Mr. Cecconi is responsible for the woodwork of his Roman mandolin made by the Liuteria Romana.

This outward deviation from the original 'Embergher' design is, although to a lesser extend, also visible in the Roman mandolins made by Mr. Takusari from Japan. Like the mandolins by the Liuteria Romana, Takusari’s instruments are built in the characteristic teardrop design of the Roman mandolin. But also here we see that the head and sound hole inlay and the border lining of the sound table is simplified. The most important deviation and alterations from the original examples, and this is in my opinion of great consequence to the quality of sound, is that the bowl is constructed in a totally different manner. This does in my eyes no justice to the construction of the original Roman mandolins designed by Giovanni Battista Maldura, Giovanni De Santis, Luigi Embergher, Domenico Cerrone and Pasquale Pecoraro.

All these aspects gave me nothing else to do than to inspire mandolin makers to make copies of original Luigi Embergher instruments of the Mandolin family. And because I believe very much in learning from feeling, looking and listening, thinking ánd studying, I asked for exact copies in the very first place. Copies build in the same - or as close as possible - manner and with replicas also of the old style metal tuning mechanisms, the hinge-hook string fasteners, the small Roman metal tail pieces etc. the old examples are applied with. The whole lot copied as close as possible. This because I think that the concert mandolin no. 5 and 5bis by Luigi Embergher and Domenico Cerrone are beyond compare and simply (speaking for myself here) esthetically excellent in their appearance. Nothing needs to be re-invented. It is all there.
The main thing being, and this is the quintessence of it all, that the building process has to be fully understood.

Two persons share their passion for the Roman mandolin and its excellent qualities with me; Hendrik van den Broek and Lorenzo Lippy. It is because of their great effort to study, restore and to make exact copies of the original Roman mandolins by Luigi Embergher (Domenico Cerrone etc.) that the Roman mandolin and the way it was build is better understood now.
I believe that working in this way - making exact copies - will consequently also lead to become close(r) to the sound of the originals. As a matter of fact, I already have experienced that with the new Roman mandolins made by both makers.

And that of course is the ultimate goal.

Believing in Human progress I am even convinced that eventually the old Luigi Embergher concert mandolins will be surpassed by contemporary (and/or future) makers both in sound and appearance. Aspects both relative and subject to tastes and modes etc.

Because the instruments by the old masters mentioned above get more and more expensive and rare we simply have to give today’s luthiers the trust and chance to work by commissioning them to make new instruments after old examples. Otherwise there is stagnation and no progress at all…


This weekend Maestro Lippi is coming and with him three beautiful looking new Roman concert mandolins (and guitars). A nice music party is in the making with most of my students ánd CONSORT members present to try the instruments, so I hope to be back to you with good news!


Cheers for now,

Alex.

[Jim Garber]

About Arto’s 2nd question, whether Mr. Cecconi is involved in this all, I can only say that this is not very clear; I believe he is and from a reply by Chris Aquavella to this topic (see an earlier post by Chris on page one or so) I got the impression that Chris thinks or has been told that Mr. Cecconi is responsible for the woodwork of his Roman mandolin made by the Liuteria Romana.

Just to address this once again. I had written to Marco about these mandolins and the connection to Sr. Cecconi in 2006:

The instruments that Marco Onorati is commissioning have nothing to do with Carlo Cecconi. The Nuova Liuteria Romana is a consortium of luthiers in Rome that Marco has commissioned to build the 5bis copies.

Here is a direct quote from Marco from April 2005:

In few days I will be able to upload photos of one of our Embergher 5 bis copia.
However this mandolin are produced not by Sir. Carlo Cecconi but by a specialized team in Roman Mandolin called "Nuova Liuteria Romana".
At the moment we are producing 2 of this mandolin one for an Alison Stephens pupil and one for Sonia Maurer (www.soniamaurer.com).

Actual price is 3500 Euro (in Italy just a little more than a Calace Classico A).
But our mandolin are produced only with original handcrafts methods, and only with first class material.
We can assure you that this is a very high performer mandolin other than a very beautiful mandolin.
In other we produce them under the direction of the customer in order size, and more.

I believe that Sonia Maurer is Marco's wife and that the student mentioned might be Chris Acquavella who is the only person I know who has an Embergher copy made by these folks. He was selling his Pandini because he found this one much better suited to his needs.

This was from this thread.

[etbarbaric]

I have a smile on my face. I had contemplated responding to this thread earlier, by saying simply that if Alex was satisfied, the rest of us would likely also be satisfied. I think his post makes that point rather well... :-)

Going to these lengths to reproduce details may seem excessive, but I think it is not. Copying here is not just a matter of reproducing the look of an instrument, but rather duplicating the approach taken by these very successful luthiers. In so doing, hopefully we learn new things (about materials, acoustics, and techniques) and understand reasons why things were done a certain way. New approaches and "improvisations" are fine, but hopefully they are built on a solid foundation of understanding what came before.

Best,

Eric

[vkioulaphides]

Not wanting to offend —as these are turbulent waters, the "Stormy Forties" of the Seven Mando-Seas— I had not said much earlier, but I will add my twopence-worth, anyhow, hoping some will agree.

I. French master-luthier Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume was, in his lifetime, derogatorily spoken of as "The Copyist". Humbled (perhaps) by his MONUMENTAL acquisition of Luigi Tarisio's unique instrumentarium (provenance of many, MANY of top-tier, extant Strads, Guarneris, etc.), he spent his entire career faithfully copying the Italian masters of (his) yesteryear. Thus there is no "Vuillaume model"— just excellent violins.

Speaking for myself alone, I'd gladly mortgage the house for the mandolin-equivalent of a Vuillaume violin.

II. While we all revere and cherish fine, vintage mandolins, the only parties who ultimately profit from "vintage-worship" are instrument dealers, NOT musicians. Case in point: the finest bowed string instruments often end up in the hands (or rather air-tight vaults) of well heeled collectors, investment bankers, industrialists, artsy CEOs, quirky millionaires, private museum-buffs, and the like. Have any of you heard any of these instruments played lately?

I'd rather listen to a lovely modern instrument, say, by Sr. Lippi, than vicariously share the joy of, say, the Ritz'n'Artsy family, upon their (hypothetical, of course) acquisition of all remaining Embergher concert-mandolins.

I do not wish to slander anyone, of course, but only voice the biases and predilections of a musician, for whatever they're worth.

Cheers,

Victor

[Jim Garber]

But Victor, my good friend, both you and I can talk, but we are both the owners of lovely but modest vintage Emberghers. I think the ultimate question, to me at least, is do these contemporary makers measure up in quality to the vintage ones. If so, I say, yes, that is wonderful and I am all for it.

However, there is a reason why these older instruments got for high prices: a) you cannot buy a genuine new instrument made by the hands of Embergher, Cerrone, and Pecoraro and b) people are willing to pay the prices asked. It is exactly the same for those makers here in the US who copy the work of Gibson during the Lloyd Loar era. Some have probably surpassed those mandolins in terms of quality and those few makers do charge high prices but there are also a larger group who make mandolins more affordable to players.

In any case, if these Lippi 5 bis mandolins are every bit the quality of a 5bis Embergher, that would be a wonderful thing. In any case, I would hope that if not, Sr, Lippi would continue to strive in that direction, esp to make an excellent instrument suitable for playing fine music.

[Acquavella]

Hello,

Right, lets sort out some of these details. Cecconi had nothing to do with the building of my instrument. (My misunderstanding from broken Italian messages). My 5bis was built by two makers: Milena Di Fabio and Mauro Carpiceci. I pinned down Marco for some details yesterday.

"Personally I know of Chris' Roman mandolin (that once was played by Sonia Maurer) and another one that I was fortunate to examine."

Sonia never owned my mandolin. It was built for me with my input on design. Hence some of the strange, non-Embergher ornaments...ie...no ivory binding or flowers on fingerboard. My Pandini had ebony binding and no fret ornaments. I based my Embergher copy on that instrument. I have always prefered blank fretboards. I would do this differently given a second chance. I believe Sonia had an instrument made for her but not sure. I only know of it through Jim's post. I also think that Pierangelo Fevola plays a Nuovo Liuteria Romana 5bis. I've seen it in some of his Youtube videos and it too is missing Embergher-ish ornaments. His does not have a pick guard at all and I believe has ebony binding.

Whether it is a replica or an original Embergher.....I love them either way. Every instrument has its own personality. I played Alison's mandolin and loved it from day one. I played Hugo D'Alton's mandolin and hated it after ten minutes. That was almost four years ago. It might be the other was around given another go.

I think that it is wonderful that there are two luthiers making exact Embergher replicas and other luthiers continuing the roman tradition. Lippi and Broek weren't around when I won the award (or not so advertised) or I might have very well ended up with one of their instruments. It is just awesome that we have a good selection of new classical mandolin makers whether they are German, Italian or American. Some of my students are trading in their flatbacks for the bowl. One bought an original 1919 Embergher, another a new Calace Classico A and another is getting an Albert & Mueller. It brings a tear to my eye....

[Eugene]

...And way peripheral, but I have seen a fine guitar from Vuillaume's shop. As might be expected, it was typical of the guitars of Vuillaume's day and had nothing to do with copying Stradivari's guitars.

[Richard Walz]

Dan Larson just made an Embergher concert mandolin :




This instrument has a slightly wider fingerboard and is convincing example of the Roman instrument.

[vkioulaphides]

WOW!

Dear friends, whatever minor divergences of opinion there may be between us, I think that ALL of us must take great joy and delight in the fact that such fine instruments are now being built, and by so many different luthiers! Only a few years ago, these latest developments would have been beyond even our wildest dreams.

I will close by agreeing with Jim: yes, let us hope these "neo-Roman" instruments are brilliant, and/or that they will continue to progress in that direction. No one can deny that they've gotten off to an EXCELLENT start!

Cheers,

Victor

[Bob A]

Nice to see that D. Laeson is getting into the game.

Two questions come to mind for Richard's new Larson: is the bowl lined with spruce or paper, and is the fretboard wider on the bass side (both features of the original Embergher design)?

I would take gentle exception to Victor's comment that only dealers profit from the vintage market, insofar as the removal of an exemplary instrument from the concert circuit has the advantage of preserving the instrument more or less intact, to the benefit of future makers and players. It can serve as a sort of template in that way, and it has to be said that professional play can be rough on a musical instrument - not only from vigorous musicians, but from the perils of travel. More than one Strad has come to grief this way, for example.

[Richard Walz]

spruce lining. Not sure what you mean by wider on bass side? Fingerboard is more like the Pecorraro version than the ultra narrow Embergher.

[Schlegel]

spruce lining. Not sure what you mean by wider on bass side? Fingerboard is more like the Pecorraro version than the ultra narrow Embergher.

I think he meant thicker, i.e., the fingerboard is, in effect, tilted along its longitudinal axis. Although if the fingerboard is radiused I suppose "rotated to the treble" is more accurate terminology.

[Bob A]

Thicker, yes indeed. Perhaps I'm somewhat rotated toward the treble today, myself.

[Jim Garber]

That is very interesting, Richard. Was this one built for you?

[Acquavella]

Richard,

That mandolin looks awesome. For some reason I thought you had a 5bis model made for you. Larson did a really nice job on that instrument. Looking forward to hearing it.

Chris....

[Jim Garber]

That is a nice instrument, Richard. Having actually played one of Daniel's older ones, I have to say he is on the right track in terms of sound quality. The one I played (Matt's) was quite sweet... definitely reminiscent of the Vega sound.

[Neil Gladd]

Just a reminder that my fellow Virginia Tech graduate, Brian Dean, is also making Roman mandolins in Canada.

http://www.labraid.ca/

I haven't seen any of the instruments by the makers in this thread in person, but I think we ought to list them all.

[Eugene]

Wow, nice. Where is Dan getting his hardware?

I'm looking forward to meeting Brian and seeing his mandolins in Dayton this autumn.

I was sorely tempted to place an order with Brian. I finally settled (at least this time) on having an up-and-coming local luthier friend of mine concoct a more Neapolitan-like model. I'll post more on that elsewhere as appropriate. Still, one day I may dabble in the Roman type...and maybe even the German.

[Jim Garber]

Where is Dan getting his hardware?

I don't know where Dan got his but Kurt DeCorte sells repro Embergher parts.

[Eugene]

I figured it might be DeCorte, but also thought it would be worth knowing if there were other options available.

[Richard Walz]

The tailpiece was made (Dan's instrument) by Henk (friend of Alex), the tuners are modified Schallers, repro tuning machines from Italy cost a small fortune (understandably).

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi all,

As promised, here is something more to (hopefully) enjoy about the new Roman mandolins build by Maestro Lorenzo Lippi from Milano.

Of course the internet sound quality is not to compare with that of a mastered CD, but listening to the YouTube links below, perhaps gives an idea of what it is all about. My apologies for the poor video quality of Ugo Bottacchiari's 'Tramonto Di Maggio'. But since it is such a nice and original tremolo composition (ánd combination; three mandolins and a mandola) - ánd the only piece that I video taped at the party on which all the instruments, mandola included, are made by Lorenzo Lippi, I felt I simply had to show you. The other video shows me playing Johann Sebastian Bach's Prelude of his first violoncello Suite (BWV 1007) on Lippi's Palissander bowl Model No. 5bis Concert Mandolin. Since the owner was on vacation this past month I was fortunate to have the instrument at my disposal and to play it.




and the 2nd video:




Best,

Alex

[Richard Walz]

Very nicely played Alex but I do find the sound somewhat overly metallic... perhaps just the recording quality. Visually the instrument is extremely convincing.

[brunello97]

Thank you, Alex, this a very nice pair of performances to wake up to, quando oggi e il tramanto di Giugno.

Mick