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Thread: Flatbacks of note

  1. #501
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Interesting about the "longer scale" Leland. I've never seen one of these in person. All mine have been the 13" scale. Yours looks like it has a bit of wear on the top north of the cant line...or is that just in photo. Maybe from a missed located bridge at one time, or does the nut-to-12th fret check out at 6-7/8"?
    Who knows? Maybe the LarBros were behind the longer scale models?
    Mick
    The bridge was positioned above the cant originally and has been there for quite a while since i never set this one up. Of course, now I want to do so. Yes, nut to 12th is 6-7/8" which is how I knew it was longer scale. The bridge is now closer to where it should be, I think.

    I have a bone guitar saddle for this mandolin but just have to cut it down and slant the sides so it fits in the bridge. Here is closeup of the bridge area.

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    Jim

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  2. #502
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Thanks, Jim. Now I want to go back and remeasure all my Lelands.

    Would be super insterested to know if the body dimensions are larger or whether they simply positioned the bridge further back--which if your current photo is correct it doesn't look like--or pushed the cant location a bit further back. Could you measure the distance between the south edge of the scratchplate and the cant line for me?

    In any even there would need to be a whole new fretbaoard layout for the longer scale...but the fretboard tail doesn't look any longer on yours. Also worth a comp with mine.

    Last question: I've probably asked you this and you probably answered and I probably forgot: can you check for that elusive SN on the brace North of the soundhole. The OP in the other Leland thread said there wasn't one on his--very interesting. All mine have had them including the non-Leland labeled ones.

    Thanks, amigo!

    Mick
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  3. #503
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    SN is 11802. Cant to tailpiece is about 4-3/8”. Looks like 3/4” from pickguard to cant.
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Thank you, sir!
    Mick
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  5. #505
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Has it really been April since we've had a flatback of note?

    This handsome mandolin from George La Foley crossed my radar this morning.

    I've never played one, but appreciate this mandolin's straightforward, well proportioned design.

    I'm also tempted to pronounce the maker's name as a Frenchified: Georges.

    Mick
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    Last edited by brunello97; Dec-16-2020 at 9:01pm.
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  7. #506
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Was that scratchplate added? It looks rather funky.
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  8. #507
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Was that scratchplate added? It looks rather funky.
    If you look closer, I think you'll find that it closely resembles the shape of a fromage with a few small nibbles.
    Or a map of the Acquitaine region.
    One more reason to suspect a French connection for M. La Foley.

    Mick
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  9. #508
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    I still think the scratchplate was added. The other older example I have has a vertical oval soundhole and more of a standard inlaid scratchplate and this one I found on Reverb has none at all but it does have the tensioner.

    Here's the older one, with a sort of DeMeglio headstock shape and a Barnes & Mullins store label:
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    And this one on Reverb in which the seller says is from the 1920s:
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    Good info from the seller:
    Vintage & Rare 1920s London Hand Made G. (GEORGE) LA FOLEY Cased Mandolin

    A very rare British made mandolin constructed from Mahogany Rosewood and spruce, a label signed by the maker with original case, George La Foley was a famous British luthier manufacturer in London in the 1920s, but ceased trading in the early 1930s. His instruments are sought after by players and I can see why from this example - a fine mandolin hand made in the early 20th century by a well known maker. Includes the original lightweight travel case.
    The instrument has been well looked after, has no cracks or breaks, repairs or distortion. The top is fine grained spruce with full bindings interspersed with rosewood around the top and sound hole. Internally the mandolin is fully lined, finely braced and there is a stamp on the neck block 'LA FOLEY MAKER LONDON' The sound is full and loud and the intonation is very good.

    The floating rosewood bridge is stamped “JOHN GREY & SONS” There is an ebony 'string break angle' ebony bar which is attached to the top a by two adjustable screws short distance from the bridge.

    The neck / body joint is solid and sound. The neck is perfectly straight and true. Frets have plenty of life left. Playing action is low and quick and sounds strong and really good. The Tuning machines all work well and hold tune well. The mandolin has been recently re-strung with nickel 10-32 strings

    The original case is included. The two metal catches have some light surface rust but both operate. A new handle has been fabricated at some time

    George La Foley was a respected maker of mandolins in London and this mandolin has an internal Makers paper label signed in red ink by Geo. La Foley with a number 9068. Also states 'Product of British hand labour'
    Jim

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  11. #509
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    This one was posted as sold by Hobgoblin in UK last August. Same odd scratchplate as the one Mick posted with added pickup.

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  12. #510
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Yes, I've seen DeMegio-ish La Foleys, Jim, and others with somewhat odd floating pickguards. Seems like another British make (JE Dallas?) sometimes used a similar approach to the oddly shaped floating or attached pickguards.
    At least there isn't a dopey dragon on them.

    Mick
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  14. #511

    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    https://reverb.com/uk/item/39182923-...s-plate-1910-s
    Beautiful French 'Phrynis' flatback mandolin for sale in France (I was thinking about whether I could afford it but there seem to be too many potential difficulties with charges and CITES post-Brexit alas )

  15. #512

    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    I haven't been able to find any information about the French luthier 'Phyrnis' apart from a few listing (one listed as Eugene Barthelemy so that might be his fullname?). The one on Reverb looks really nice and has a wider fretboard than other French-made mandolins. Do we know anything about the maker?

  16. #513
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    One reference I can find is a rare phonograph player mentioned on a talking machine forum. This mandolin resembles others from the JTL shop in France with various model names stamped. I have one that says Euterpe. I wonder if this were made to sold in a store that sold that brand of talking machine. I will check my files for similar mandolins when I can get on my computer.
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  18. #514

    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Thank you Jim. Is the JTL shop Jerome Thibouville-Lamy - so 'Phrynis' might be a brand name but made by JTL? I came across one with a Garelli signature and couldn't find info on the luthier so might be the same thing.

  19. #515
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    The pickguard is very similar to my Euterpe and I have seen similar on their Phebe-branded ones as well. OTOH I see a few others with that Phrynis brand that were associated with Eugene Barthelemy. Not sure who he is.

    For historical purposes, here are a few photos of this Phrynis mandolin.
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  21. #516
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Where's Victor the K?

    "Phrynnis or Phrynis of Mytilene was a celebrated dithyrambic poet of ancient Greece, who lived roughly around the time of the Peloponnesian War....

    He belonged to the Lesbian school of citharoedic music, having been taught music by Aristocleides, a musician of the time of the Persian Wars, who claimed a lineal descent from the renowned Terpander. Before receiving the instructions of this musician, Phrynnis had been a flute-player, which may partly account for the liberties he took with the music of the cithara. His innovations and affectations are repeatedly attacked by the comic poets, especially Pherecrates and Aristophanes.

    Among the innovations which he is said to have made, was the addition of two strings to the heptachord; and Plutarch relates that, when he went to Sparta, the Ephors cut off two of his nine strings, only leaving him the choice whether he would sacrifice the two lowest or the two highest. Some scholars consider this anecdote doubtful; for it is not improbable that the number of strings had been increased at an earlier period.

    What is not controversial is that Phrynnis earned the ire of these poets owing to his technique of "bending" or "turning" (kampai) the melody, a modulation that other poets thought "ruined" the music."

    Bending the melody? Pixxing off Aristophanes? (Who does that?!) Worth getting a mandolin named after you for that...

    Mick
    Last edited by brunello97; May-07-2021 at 6:55pm.
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  23. #517
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    OK, so other branded French mandolins: Euterpe (muse in charge of music and dance) and Phebe (goddess of the moon). I don't think Victor the K was branded on any French mandolin, though.

    While we are waiting for Victor K...

    Here are three pages from a 1912 JTL catalog showing Phebe and Euterpe flatback mandolins. If nothing else the overall style is similar and the scratchplate close in style.
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  25. #518
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    My old tired eyes with no glasses on looked over from another computer and saw this thread title as Flashbacks of Note. 21 pages!!

    Oh, well... I'll go back to my corner now.
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  27. #519
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I don't think Victor the K was branded on any French mandolin, though.
    Well, if any of us deserves to be....I would vote for Victor....

    Mick
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  28. #520

    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    I hadn't registered that 'Phrynis' related to Greek mythology - so a mysterious Eugene Barthelemy could be the luthier working under JTL. I will be keeping my peepers out for JTL mandolins in the UK - they look lovely.

  29. #521
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Here's an interesting Portuguese-made bandolim with Preston tuners. I think this shop might be still in business (found a page on Facebook) although some of the links I have found apply to items other than music. I have found a few other mandolins and at least one guitar from this shop.
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  31. #522
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Here's a 2019 thread on another Portuguese mandolin like the one I posted above. In it a link to a blog with a similar instrument (scroll down below the balalaika).
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Here's a curiosity (to me at least): what is certainly a Martin made / Favilla labeled flatback mandolin.

    I like to keep an eye out for Favilla mandolins, but don't recall seeing something like this before.
    Maybe I've missed it

    Far too well done to be a copy.

    Why Favilla would job out flatback mandolins to Martin is a puzzle to me.

    Thoughts on this?

    Mick
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Without some pics to compare I would say it is Favilla-made and not made by Martin. The headstock looks different to me and I am guessing there are some other subtle differences that we would see in a side by side comparison. Feel free to prove me wrong
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    Default Re: Flatbacks of note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Without some pics to compare I would say it is Favilla-made and not made by Martin. The headstock looks different to me and I am guessing there are some other subtle differences that we would see in a side by side comparison. Feel free to prove me wrong
    That may be a hard task, you honor.

    There are some subtleties there, Jim.

    Maybe a leaner headstock on the Martin? The back termination at the neck seems to have varied on Martins from somewhat pointy to rounded as we see on the Favilla.

    I can't seem to find any photos of the Ditson labeled Martin I had years ago that also had some subtle differences from the basic flatback Martins. But they were very subtle.

    Of course, the many Favilla flatbacks we've seen bear no resemblance to Martins, but they were trying out a range of variations.
    I have a couple in my files drifting a little into basic Nazarene territory.
    Did they just dive in to try to copy the competition?

    A here's an Ockham's Razor-y question:

    Why would Favilla go to such lengths to nearly perfectly copy a Martin (when we know Martin was making A models for Ditson, Stewart and others)...and then make apparently make only one of them?

    Well, maybe there are more, which we've never seen.

    I suppose any answer to that question is a viable one.

    I'm sure someone will weigh in with an 'expert' opinion.

    I think I'll give Subway Guitars a call tomorrow and ask a few questions.

    I'm super interested in Favilla mandolins so would like to know more about this.

    Mick

    BTW this Martin is from the 50s...likely a bit newer era than the Favilla.
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