Transition to fiddle

[twaaang]

When I borrowed a fiddle I expected that lack of frets would be the big challenge, but I never realized that a standard 4/4 violin has only a 13" scale, and of course I'm used to 14"-ish on my mandos. #So it's a real struggle not to be consistently sharp on the fiddle, to the point that my pinky usually is an entire half-step off (playing a unison for the next higher string, instead of the "sixth-fret" note I'm looking for).

I was ready for some dissonance, but not claustrophobia! #How long does it take to get past this comfortably? #Has anyone resorted to viola instead, since you can get them with a 14" scale? #-- #Paul (obviously no Sam Bush!)

[jim_n_virginia]

It didn't take me long to get used to the shorter scale of the fiddle. In fact I prefer it. After you practice a while your fingers just kind of go where they are supposed to go, at least that is the idea!

I have only been playing a year and a half myself so I am a beginner but I love it. The scale was no problem for me, I had more of a harder time using the bow right.

I think because everyone has different skill levels and aptitude they time is different for everyone but I think one thing is for sure... the MORE you practice the quicker you get to where you wanna be.

I tried a viola a few times and it feels huge to me, I didn't like it, too heavy!

[JGWoods]

It doesn't take long to adapt to the fiddle scale, nor to switching back and forth with a 14" scale. On the other hand you could move to a short scale mandolin- Old Martins, some Lyon and Healey, many of the old Regals etc. were made with a 13" scale.

[Bernie Daniel]

You can also try to use a fretted fiddle for while till you adjust to the right fingering. Just go here:

fretted fiddle

This worked very well for me as I had the same problem.

[mandroid]

Some student fractional size violas [ 3/4, 7/8?] are 14" I think..

[Jim Garber]

I have been playing fiddle as long as I have been playing mandolin (over 30 years) and never had any trouble switching back and forth. You do realize that when you fret a mandolin you are actually behind the fret whereas when you note a fiddle you are playing on top of the (theoretical) fret.

Also remember that they are different instruments entirely. I would steer clear of the fretted violin. Strange concept IMHO.

[JeffD]

One difference is in the way moving up the neck is handled. On the fiddle I learned to play in first position until I run out of string, and then move up the neck. I might go up the neck on the A string for some double stops or alternate fingerings, but not often. On the mandolin it is not uncommon to play across the neck in second or third position.

The frets make this possible, you can launch and land accurately on the mandolin, not so easily on the fiddle.

[Bernie Daniel]

jgarber: Also remember that they are different instruments entirely. I would steer clear of the fretted violin. Strange concept IMHO.

Why would you advise steering clear of something you have clearly never tried or even (apparently) never heard of?

It has been proven to be a very successful way to teaching fiddle fingering. #It is not an untried technology -- it works for many and it is advocated by individuals who teach fiddle for a living.

The only difference is you press down on the fret instead of between the frets -- takes 30 minutes or to adapt to that odd feeling.

The "fretter is removed in a few months (+/-) for most students. # Like I said with worked great for me very short learning curve. #Well worth the $25 (at the time).

[Jim Garber]

Bernie:
If it works for you, fine. I just think it sounds like a crutch that is unnecessary. I know countless fiddlers who have learned without such a contraption. I know: young kids have tape on their fingerboards, etc.

I think one prime goal in playing a fiddle is coordinating the ear and the fingers, adjusting the fingers until the notes are correct. I think the "frets" would delay that process.

Just my opinion... you are welcome to differ.

[Jerry Byers]

I'll second the use of the Fiddle Fretter. There is nothing wrong with using a teaching aid. If you can learn without it, great; otherwise, take advantage of the novel concept. This is very similar to the tab vs. reading music argument, which I still don't see the purpose of the argument. If something inspires you to learn, and more importantly, gets you to love music, then one should embrace all those things.

[RevJB]

I really don't understand what the difference is between using tape and an overlay with frets, other than extraneous cost and an unnatural feel of the fingerboard... I'm part of the tape generation and I turned out alright.

As for finger positioning and the difference between the two instruments, all I can say is that for violin it's much more about muscle memory and exact positioning, whereas the mandolin is much more forgiving due to the frets.

If you learn how to move up and down positions on the violin, you can do the same (with minimal adjustment) on the mandolin. Going the other way is definitely more difficult and time-consuming, I would think.

[Elliot Luber]

Given the two choices I would recommend tape before using frets on a fiddle because frets train you to put your finger behind the note as opposed to on the note (as mentioned above) with an instrument where accuracy is painfully important. My real recommendation though is to just tough it out and learn to put your fingers in the right spot. It's very good ear training, and it's not that difficult if you listen carefully.

[Jerry Byers]

Fiddle Fretter does not use frets in the mandolin sense; you do not use it to fret. The frets are very minor and would be very similar to tape as far as thickness goes. The frets give you an indication of position; they are not used for fretting.

If I have time tonight, and if anybody is interested, I can take a close-up of the frets.

[Flowerpot]

One tip I gleaned from the web from Darol Anger's teaching tips:

TO get the left hand used to the correct intonation, first use a tuner and get the notes right on pitch, starting with finger 1 (index), add finger 2, until all 4 fingers are down. (i.e. hold down notes on the A string B, C#, D, E.) Hold that position until you start to feel tension in the hand. Release, shake out, repeat a couple of times. Repeat daily -- but hold the position only as long as you can relax into it. After a week or two, the fingers will begin to fall into the right position. Helped me, anyway.

[JeffD]

If you learn how to move up and down positions on the violin, you can do the same (with minimal adjustment) on the mandolin. Going the other way is definitely more difficult and time-consuming, I would think.

Yes it is, and much more frustrating. I should have taken up violin as a kid, so that my ear for music could improve along with my playing. As it is, I knew darned well how the tune was supposed to sound, and I couldn't make it happen on the fiddle. It drove me nuts, and I quit several times.

That being said, it took me about a year to not sound offensive to myself, and the first six months of that year I had to go on a mandolin diet, to concentrate on the violin and its unique problems. It took another year to be able to play fiddle out in public.

It will never be my main instrument, but it is a lot of fun and taught me alot about patience and discipline.

[msh_mando]

I have a question that fits in this thread. I just started fiddling and the hardest part for me to get used to is the pain in my bowing thumb. It results from a tired thumb. I am pretty sure I am holding the bow right. Is this just something one has to get used to (by building strength) or am I likely holding the bow incorrectly?

[JeffD]

It could be that you are holding it correctly, but perhaps too tightly. I was doing that for a long time. Exhausting.

[GVD]

I never had a problem fingering the right notes but the bow? Don't even get me started.

GVD

[msh_mando]

JeffD, how did you transition to a softer grip on the bow? Exhausting exactly describes what I am going through. It tires me out to play with a rhythm track for 2 minutes.

[RevJB]

msh_mando,

You should be holding the bow with your thumb and middle finger, mostly. The others are for balance (with the pinky as the counter). It should be gripped LIGHTLY, and not in a claw like fashion. You should also make sure that your wrist movement is fluid with your up/down strokes (pivots being the elbow and the wrist in conjunction).

Also, is your thumb curled or straight when you play? The only place of contact for your thumb should be the tip (very important) while the finger is curled in almost a right angle.

[twaaang]

My thanks to all for the reassurance on the fingering issue, and I'll have to give the Darol Anger approach a try. Yes indeed, bowing is the real hurdle.

Another unexpected total block was my first attempt at tremolo (or am I supposed to call it vibrato?) while trying to sustain a note with the bow -- the two sides of my body got involved in an "After you, my dear Alfonse" routine, utterly unwilling to enter the adventure simultaneously.

Yes, this will be fun. A teacher will be involved, problems isolated, and perhaps even some music played. Thanks again. -- Paul