Mandolin and piano/cembalo

[Klaus Wutscher]

A (converted?) bluegrasser, I started to work on some classical pieces- some Bach, and now Beethoven. I´m playing a Kimble A-5. When I first played with a piano player, I found that I did not particularly like the blend of mandolin and piano. The mandolin was overpowered and it didn´t sound right to me.

The other day I visited a friend who just bought a cembalo. I didn´t have the mandolin with me but hearing the cembalo I had a gut feeling that it might be more suited for backing up a mandolin; less dynamic, "thinner" (but nice!) sound, that sounded promising to me.

Has anybody tried to play with a cembalo player instead of piano? What are the benefits and drawbacks?

[Pietrobono]

It is clear that the cembalo will be less powerful than piano and better balanced with mandolin. It also much depends on the piano player, and some could adapt to mandolin power.
More important in my opinion is that you should not mix ancient instuments with modern instruments : if you play ancient instruments, you should pair them by period. The best choice would not be a cembalo (quite late for Beethoven) but preferably a fortepiano of the 1800' period. I tried both 18th century neapolitan mandolin and "baroque" mandolin and I had opportunity to experience that a fortepiano from the 1780's (copy) was not loud enough ; on the contrary, a fortepiano of 1810 (a real one !) was too loud. Maybe it was fate, but I really think than piano makers made big steps forward in this period increasing the power of the instrument, and that those two instruments were two examples of this progression.
Probably Richard has a much bigger experience than I on this topic (and especially of this type of music) and may answer better than I.
Anyway, for pleasure it is always good to play different stuff with different people (especially with friends), so do not care and just enjoy playing these Beethoven with your friend on your respective instruments ! best wishes in discovering this new repertory !

[RSW]

I have never had balance problems with pianos (either modern concert grands with modern romantic mandolins) or late 18th century mandolin with fortepianos from the late 18th to early 19th century. I also do not use rubber picks or flatwound strings with the modern instruments, but do use the Leone/Corrette/Fouchetti type stringing on the early mandolin. These mandolins project very well, surprising because you get the impression that they don't. The post 18th century fortepianos increased in size and power very quickly and became for the most part a modern piano by the middle of the century (19th). The mandolin developped more slowly but by the end of the 19th century had more or less became what is the classical mandolin of today (Gibson and company aside). I've measured the Decibels with the modern instrument and (of course based on the attack and not a sustained sound unless you tremolo) and the mandolin is up there with the loudest sounds made by the piano or violin. I agree totally though with Jean-Paul that it isn't good to mix the instruments, though I have in the past done so myself (modern mandolin with harpsichord or cembolo). The sound of contemporary instruments together is just so much more convincing and natural. One note of caution (no pun intended), the early 18th century neapolitan mandolin with appropriate strings takes some getting use to, don't expect to have smooth sailing until you tame the tuning challenges. If you live with this instrument for an extended period of time, the strings and the technique to tune it becomes less and less of a hassle and anxiety prone experience (I'm thinking of what one experiences in public performance). If you don't want this type of challenge, then the gut strung Cremonese instrument or the gut strung 'mandolino' (lombard or whatever you want to call it) are much more user friendly and very stable with tuning.

[Stefano]

Hi Klaus,

I have played mandolin in duo with cembalo for many years, (also if we have terminated our activity nearly ten years ago). I played authors from baroque era to Beethoven being this one the author more modern. I used over all a modern Neapolitan mandolin, but also a copy of a Floriano Bosi bolognese “lombardo mandolin”. My goal was, more than execute on an baroque instrument, execute with baroque praxis. I have learned from my cembalo friend (that was also organ player), the way to improvise or to prepare the execution with the character of the improvisation with embellishments. About the benefits and drawbacks I can tell that the balance is good and natural, no effort to make the mandolin audible; the two instruments sometimes look at the same instrument preserving in the totality their typical identity. At last I want to highlight that there are many many pieces written for mandolin and cembalo if we think to realise the basso continuos, and, why not, add also a cello or a or violone or chitarrone or an arciliuto or…. all together!!!
Very nice ensembles and very nice music!!

Stefano

[Klaus Wutscher]

Thanks for everybodies input so far. Coming from a bluegrass background, my first consideration was SOUND. There is something about an A-5 and a piano that just doesn´t really match.The piano blends better with a bowlback imo but still, I´d rather hear a guitar/mando duo than piano/mando, but maybe that is just me. Or maybe it is because my piano player repeatedly (and without being asked) tells me that piano and mandolin "doesn´t sound good" together

I wasn´t aware of historical implications, and playing period repertoire on period instruments. For the fun of it, I would play Zappa on mando/cembalo - if I could

Is historical correctness really such a big issue amongst players and listeners?

I understand that classical music follows different aesthetic principles than the music I come from. So, is playing Beethoven, Bach, Vivaldi and Zappa on cembalo and "modern" mandolin a nono?

You see, I come from the Beatles school of music that lives by the credo of "let´s see how that sounds, maybe I like it"

[Pietrobono]

No, of course you are not obliged to play on historical instruments !!! But Richard, Stefano and myself are quite interested in this approach (as well as several others on this board). Of course you may as well play on modern instruments but, as Richard said, it is a different sound and feeling...
I have no idea of the sound of a bluegrass mandolin together with a cembalo, it is probably great fun. But I am quite surprised that a bluegrass mandolin is not loud enough to play with a piano, except if - as Richard already noticed - it is a question of projection, of high harmonics (which a bluegrass mandolin rarely has, in my knowledge at least)...

[Eugene]

No, of course you are not obliged to play on historical instruments !!! But Richard, Stefano and myself are quite interested in this approach (as well as several others on this board).

Me too...sometimes.

[Klaus Wutscher]

I guess the problem is not so much volume, but timbre. In fact, I would love to get a good bowlback or flatback, but right now, buying an istrument is not on my agenda, unfortunately.

Right now, I need to escape from the strict rules of "correct" bluegrass and branch out into other styles, so I guess the reference to "historically correct" instruments struck a nerve

Playing music on historically correct instruments is an interesting and valid approach, but for the time being I think I will (have to) stick to my A 5.

So Stefano (and others): When playing with a cembalo, what pieces did work well for that pairing? If you played barock music, that would probably be transcriptions from other instruments. Any suggestions what works particularly well?

Thanks for everybody´s input so far!

[Stefano]

Hi Klaus,

I absolutely share your opinion, it is better to search the mode to play a music before changing the instrument. Then, with your experience, you can contaminate baroque music with blue grass music, it could be a very nice approach.
See for example this cadenza or this Bach Giga played with a bg mandolin .
So, I think (my opinion!!) that all is playable with any kind of instrument, over all it is important your taste executing music.
When you have decided your taste you can also try with another instrument even before buying you can ask as loan to a friend. (I cannot think to Andreas Segovia with a Fender Stratocaster guitar or to Jimi Hendrix with a Ramirez guitar!!). If you decide that bg mandolin is ok for baroque music, your public appreciate your execution and your taste… then all right… bg mandolin is ok for baroque music!!!
For the music for mandolin and cembalo, you don’t need any transcriptions, there is a lot of original music: all the music written for mandolin and bass continuos, for example:

http://www.mutopiaproject.org/cgibin....andolin # (free download)
http://www.utorpheus.com/utorpheus/i...hp?cPath=1_120
….

Stefano

[Pietrobono]

Hi Stefano

For neapolitan mandolin, I am absolutely not sure that a "basso continuo" does exist, it is much too late for this taste in Paris of the 1760's (or later). What is written "basso" is probably meant for violoncello or even alto viola, see for example the Duos for violin and viola originally printed in Paris as "for violin and bass" by Haydn (at the same Editor than Leone's second set of sonatas, two years later). Nobody could play an unwritten accompaniment as "basso continuo" at the end of the eighteenth century, one can read it in every basso continuo tutor of the period... For a further study of this topic, please read Didier Le Roux's article in Le Plectre nr. 21...

So I would play with cembalo the sonatas earlier than 1760 (Scarlatti, Arrigoni, Caccini, Boni, Dalla Casa, Piccone, and so on) and with piano the 1800's stuff (Beethoven, Hummel, Neuling, Bortolazzi...), as well as transcription of baroque violin sonatas... But not the neapolitan repertoire (except Corrette, who has an older taste and who explicitly ask for cembalo accompaniment)... Of course, everyone has the right of playing the music just as he feels, but to be historically correct, one has to really think about...

Friendly yours

Jean-Paul (who dreams to be Ferrarese like you, as you know from my nickname !)

[Stefano]

Hi JP,
I am sure that, from philological point of view, you and Didier are right on this issue. In any case every choice can questionable #and I think to make no pity playing music around 1750 with a cembalo as “basso continuo”. Note also that the very poor bass line (as you know) can be enriched a lot with a good continuo. On the other side executing Boni, Dalla Casa friends Fontanelli, Vaccari,…, with neapolitan mandolin so as Scarlatti with mandolin can be discussible. At the same mode can be discussible use the plectrum for many of the author that you have cited… This is another history and we can open a new thread on this!!.
I want only suggest a road map for Klaus and I think that start with free nice music could be a good choice.
Your intervention, JP, have suggested me to add these links for Boni, Valentini and Dalla Casa “friends”.

Boni
Valentini
Dalla Casa

Stefano

P.S.
You know,JP, that you are welcome in Ferrara whenever you want… I should be happy to accompany you to “Palazzo Schifanoia”.

[Neil Gladd]

Mandolin and harpsichord is one of my favorite combinations, but I have not had the opportunity to play with harpsichordists nearly enough. I am a great believer in authentic instruments (if you have them), but have played the original works of Arrigoni, Boni, Guerra and Beethoven with modern mandolin and harpsichord, and they sound just fine. ("Modern mandolin" = 100 year old bowlback, as opposed to a 250 year old bowlback.) I have also played violin and harpsichord works by Bach and Corrette, and they also sound great. Even a Gibson mandolin with harpsichord might sound OK if you were using period strings. (The lighter strings intended for it in the 1920s, rather than the heavy strings favored by bluegrass players today.)

Although I would never play a baroque piece with piano, Beethoven's harpsichord writing was very pianistic, so you can play them with either instrument and they work fine. If you don't have a harpsichord available for baroque continuo parts, then organ actually works better than piano, and I have played the Arrigoni sonatas that way.

I might mention that harpsichord was my secondary instrument in college, and I played recitals on both back in my student days. I have written solo pieces for each, but still haven't written a piece for mandolin and harpsichord together. Someday...

[Pietrobono]

Stefano

You are absolutely right about finger playing on those pre-1750 stuff ! even if we can see in some cases (Caccini book) the trial to play only adjacent strings... And the plectrum existed and was in use on french mandore a few years before... This is right that the right answer is to propose to Klaus the best available music.

Neil

I absolutely agree with you that the choice of organ is a very great choice for accompanying mandolin. We have just experienced that again one month ago (2 mandolins and organ, it was a real pleasure)

I have been also very astonished to notice that 1900 strings are sounding quite similar to the "Fouchetti set", and in any case very different from round wound modern strings, the change of strings is a good unexpensive choice to adapt your sound !

Fully agree with both of you, we had same results experimenting different paths !

[John Kavanagh]

I spent over ten years specialising in early music performance, mostly on lute and viola da gamba, and I do think that you shouldn't mix and match eras only if you claim to be following authentic historical performance practice. You should know what the composer expected to hear, but there's lots of ways to make good music, as long as you're clear about what you're doing, and your own ears and taste have to be the final judge there. If you like it, go for it. Sometimes you find pleasant surprises.

#There's no actual laws in most English-speaking countries about what you can and can't do in music - the question is whether anyone likes it. If professionals still play Bach and Scarlatti on the piano, you can play Beethoven on your A-5, as far as I'm concerened.

I'd like to hear harpsichord and modern Gibson-style mandoln together very much. A good A-5 might even overpower some harpsichords - and could probably sound good with a tasteful piano player - but the contrasting plucked-metal sounds could also be very attractive.
(Just don't say it's what Beethoven heard. Even though he said "cembalo" on the score, there's a good case for thinking he meant piano, so you're anachronistic in in both directions...)

I've done several receptions and concerts playing classical and ragtime pieces using a (fluorocarbon-strung) tenor ukulele with harpsichord (unamplified) or clavichord (amplified), and no one threw anything - I think I wasn't the only one who thought it sounded nice. I have three gigs this week playing electric gamba, #- but I'm not claiming to follow any historical performance practice...

[Acquavella]

Hello,

I have performed with both concert piano and harpsichord. (haven't had the chance to play with fortepiano yet) I am currently working with harpsichordist, Takae Ohnishi. The mandolin and harpsichord are a wonderful combination that I am just now starting to love. My interest in this combination came from a curiousity about the Beethoven pieces. I have always performed these pieces with a pianist. Most recordings of the piece have been for piano. I had finally decided that I wanted to play the piece as Beethoven intended, just to see how it sounds. It sounds.....completely different, in a wonderful way. It was absolutely refreshing. I am really enjoying the combination of mandolin and harpsichord.

As mentioned previously, an A-5 or F-style produce a totally different sound, volume and harmonic range than a top quality bowlback. This is particulary why almost all professional classical mandolinists solely play bowlbacks. The one thing you can try is play slightly more PONTICELLO (Sul Pont). It will change te timbre of the instrument and at least create a larger contrast to the piano. Don't do it too much or you will just sound frail and annoyingly chirpy. Also tell the pianist to play a little lighter. From my experience...pianists tend to start playing the Beethoven pieces like the Sonatas....quite heavy and full sounding. These pieces were written in 1796 for harpsichord and are quite light in texture. If your pianist mostly plays romantic music he/she probably plays the piece more like Rakhmaninov. It takes a bit of work on both parts but the piano/mandolin are a wonderful combination. However, I am really enjoying working with harpsichord at the moment. I recommend you try both.

Chris

[RSW]

Sorry Chris, the Beethoven pieces were not written for harpsichord, he was in the height of his piano virtuoso years when he wrote these pieces... Of course, a harpsichord can be used but it will not help this music in my opinion. Be careful about the way the pieces are titled in this period, there is a lot of confusion of what means 'cembolo'.

[Acquavella]

Hi Richard,

I'm glad you have chimed in. There has been quite a debate over whether it was for harpsichord or piano. I can never seem to get a definitive answer. Personally I have never really cared until recently. The original manuscript does state Cembolo, which is why (mandolin) historians have this debate. (no one else cares) The harpsichord first popped into my mind, in regards to Beethoven, when I saw a published article by Marilynn Mair. Also, Vinzenz Hladky has made the same statement. Tyler & Sparks didn't specify.

Around 1790 Beethoven was learning with Haydn and around 1796-ish is when the piano trios were composed, as well as the first three piano Sonatas. The Haydn connection is why I made a more classical analogy than a romantic one. The four Beethoven mandolin pieces are quite different from the piano sonatas or even the piano trios. Whether its intended for harpsichord or piano, I am enjoying both at the moment. Up until recently I have always performed with a pianist. Now, I am enjoying hearing them on a harpsichord. It is interesting that Beethoven chose to write Cembolo instead of Klavier. That would have cleared a lot of this up. Anyways thanks for your input. Cheers.

Chris...

[Martin Jonas]

Then, with your experience, you can contaminate baroque music with blue grass music, it could be a very nice approach.

Well, there's always P.D.Q. Bach...

Martin

[Klaus Wutscher]

[RSW]

Chris, all of the pieces back then were titled for cembolo, clavecin and/or whatever instrument had a keyboard. Neuling's sonata as well as Hummel's (written around 1810) also give the harpsichord first listing. This was pure commercial logic because the fortepiano was relatively new. Beethoven, Hummel and company would have been totally into the piano or fortepiano by then (Mozart and Haydn as well) and the fact that the music sounds well on the harpsichord is a testament to their greatness as composers. Whether it is better served by the harpsichord is another matter all together and ultimately one of taste and the talents of the performer. Enjoy!

[barbaram]

I was lucky enough to make many radio programs of the mandolin's early repertoire in the 1980s. Our harpsichordist was John Gray, who toured extensively with the violinist Yehudi Menuhin. At the first rehearsal for the Beethoven Eb Adagio he said this work was not written for harpsichord as the opening block chords were typical writing for piano (with sustaining pedal) and any knowledgeable composer would have configured the chords differently for a harpsichord (allowing for the lack of a sustaining pedal).

So our recording has the chords reconfigured to be more idiomatic for the harpsichord.

That recording was made nearly 30 years ago; these days I have no doubt we would record it, as Beethoven almost certainly meant, on a fortepiano.

[Acquavella]

I would agree with the previous statement. During my last rehearsal with Takae, we had a discussion along these lines. She stated, as well, that if Beethoven did write these pieces for harpsichord then he doesn't know anything about the instrument.

I decided to look through my record collection. Interestingly I have more recordings of the Beethoven pieces on harpsichord than I have of mandolin/piano. I didn't realize that until know. (I generally don't listen to these pieces very often anymore). I was surprised by the high level of musicians on these albums. Elfriede Kunschak, Takashi Ochi, Jacon Thomas(?), Vinzenz Hladky and even Maria Scivittaro all have recorded the Beethoven pieces with harpsichord. It appears that the 1960-70's German contingent were the leaders in the harpsichord opinion. Also, the change of opinion in the performance of baroque music comes to mind. (Yes, I know Beethoven is classical, thank you much). When I was at Trinity we discussed how the performance/interpretation of baroque music in regards to ornamentation, trills and phrasing has changed through out the last 20-30 years. Judging by the Beethoven mandolin recordings released from Germany in 1960-70s, compared to what is currently being released....it appears that this could also be the case. Anyways - I just found this interesting. It gave me an incentive to go through some old vinyl.

Right......I have to go practice. I obviously have way too much time on my hands.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all,

I think we have to consider some other ideas concerning van Beethoven's Mandolin & Harpsichord compositions.
First of all the fact that these pieces were gifts. Most likely not even composed to be published... and therefore likely without a reason for van Beethoven to indicate another accompanying instrument than what he wrote down and indicated on the score. No commercial ideas of publishing houses of the time involved I would think.

And although it is possible that van Beethoven composed these little gems while toying with his piano-forte (in one of them there are indeed dynamic indications, a fact that some scholars see as evidence... One can however find similar indications in many Harpsichord compositions of the time...), it does not prove or say anything about for what key-board instrument a composer - in this case Ludwig van Beethoven - composed and/or intended the accompanying part to be performed with.

One should not forget that in Vienna and Prague the Cembalo was still played and loved, and that it was not yet outshined by the Piano Forte. The Piano forte at that particular time being an instrument fully in development and not regarded by many as most perfect yet... .

It is therefore not unlikely that around 1796 (the year most of this takes place) there was no piano-forte to be found in the residence of the family Clam-Gallas. Perhaps the Comtesse Josephine Clary, who lived in the house of her father in law to be Christian Philipp Clam-Gallas, only had a harpsichord at her disposal.

Personally I think Ludwig van Beethoven knew exactly what he did when he wrote down ‘Cembalo’ as the indication for the accompanying part to be performed with for all his mandolin compositions.
He knew precise what instruments were available in Josephine Clary’s music room and likely saw no reason to embarrass her – and/or the Clam-Gallas family – with wonderful music gifts containing duets for instruments of which one wasn’t around... #

No, van Beethoven pointed out ‘Cembalo’ on all of these works and that is enough for me. Also, and that is another reason (and perhaps the most important one for me personally) is that the Cembalo gives a much greater contrast with gut-strung mandolins, the types favored most in Art music in Vienna and Prague at that particular time.


Best,

Alex

[RSW]

Hmm??? I know of these arguments but from what I see in the literature of the time (violin and keyboard in particular), I wouldn't bet on it (that Beethoven composed this music with the sound of the harpsichord in his ear). Vienna at that time was awash with fortepiano production and it was the latest and greatest of the keyboard instruments. Whether or not Beethoven's music was to be published is not that important... have a look at the Neuling sonata (published), same situation... written well into the 19th century. As I said before, the music is playable on the harpshichord (and even enjoyable) but it FEELS a lot better on the fortepiano with the equivalent mandolin. The reason these pieces were experimented with in the 60's and 70's (on recordings) with harpsichord is simply the fact that the MODERN piano is too far removed and for many mandolinists, creates balance problems. The other point, and this goes way back to our debate on 'for what type of mandolin' these pieces were written (check the archives), whether the pieces are better on an instrument tuned in 5ths of 4ths. I'm still waiting to hear a recording or performance of the later (mandolino in 4ths played fingerstyle with harpsichord).

[etbarbaric]

I'm still waiting to hear a recording or performance of the lat[t]er (mandolino in 4ths played fingerstyle with harpsichord).

Well... I have all the bits (including the family harpsichord now). I just haven't had time to put it all together... some day. I too am officially curious about this combination. I can tell you that the Beethoven pieces work very nicely on the gut-strung instrument in fourths played with the fingers. Mozart is nicer still!

Of course, opinions we got lots of... :-)

Eric