Octave or tenor guitar?

**Mandodrummer** · Nov-02-2007, 8:43am

Looking to add another voice to a jam. We do mostly easy rock and easy fiddle tunes and would like to try some celtic. Right now there are just 2 of us both on mandolin. We sometimes have a guitarist too. I'm thinking of buying either a tenor guitar or Octave Mandolin to give another voice. Which would be more veritile?
Thanks,
MandoDrummer

**danb** · Nov-02-2007, 9:00am

They're both pretty good. Tenor guitar works pretty well for tenor banjo tunes as well as backing, and an OM does the same with a more mandolinny tone

**mandolooter** · Nov-02-2007, 9:07am

The Octave will give you a more Celtic feel, the tenor a more oldtime/bluegrass feel.

**zoukboy** · Nov-02-2007, 10:39am

Originally Posted by (mandolooter @ Nov. 02 2007, 10:07)

The Octave will give you a more Celtic feel, the tenor a more oldtime/bluegrass feel.

I think it depends more on how you play it. I know several people (myself included) who play tenor guitar and it has anything but an oldtime/bluegrass feel... ;-)

**Mandodrummer** · Nov-02-2007, 10:43am

So if you had to choose one over the other for the styles of music mentioned, what would be your first choice to complement a mandolin player? I have also considered a Mandobird IV.

**mandolooter** · Nov-02-2007, 10:56am

Im only speaking for me... Im not a big fan of the Celtic stuff so I don't try to sound that way. Ya don't hear a lot of Octave in bluegrass but you do in Celtic hence my statement. Its the player who makes the "genre sound" more than the instrument, I think, Im no expert just a guy with a mandolin and tenor guitar. My Octave has flown east...

**MDW** · Nov-02-2007, 10:56am

Careful now, you're headed down the slippery slope of FAS (Fifths tuned Acquisition Syndrome). In addition to mandolin, I've already acquired a tenor guitar, octave mandolin, and tenor banjo and sniffing around the possibility of mandocello and mandola. I enjoy playing all of them and love having different sounds/tones available. I find that the song itself dictates what instrument I feel led to pickup.

**Ken Sager** · Nov-02-2007, 11:42am

Having owned and played both tenor & OM on stage and recordings, I'd say the tenor is more versatile only in that it fits with more styles of music. (My humble opinion, mind you.)

However, the OM will have a sound that you can't get from a tenor, and a tenor will have a sound you can't get from an OM. Buy one of each. Problem solved.

**Ken Sager** · Nov-02-2007, 11:42am

Originally Posted by (Mandodrummer @ Nov. 02 2007, 09:43)

So if you had to choose one over the other for the styles of music mentioned, what would be your first choice to complement a mandolin player? #I have also considered a Mandobird IV.

Tenor.

**danb** · Nov-02-2007, 11:52am

I've played both. Controversial I reckon, but I actually think a resonator TG is the most flexible. It's more banjo-sounding than a non-resophonic, and more bouzouki sounding than a std TG as well. I back with mine in GDAD, or play lead TB style in GDAE. With 4 strings and a very slight break angle over the cone, you can get away with retuning quickly and often without string breaks. So when I'm really looney, I change to DDAd, AEAE, GDGD, AEAC# etc... many of which are old-timey fiddle tunings.

Then again, there is an altogether different sound to be had from an OM or bouzouki. The "True" Irish zook sound usually involves playing the tonic & the 5th, or using a GDAD ADAD or otherwise open tuning of some sorts- gdae lacks some of the droning resonance established by the bouzouki cadre starting with Moynihan/Irvine and their Greek bouzoukis.

Back on the TGs- on a fairly honest examination of general session responses I've had, the TG is "A bit odd" as a backing instrument, though warmly accepted as a lead player in the Tenor Banjo style. Hot banjo players always want to try it and mumble about how it would be clever to get one to add to their fleets. usually I end up in funky stunt tunings when I back, such as capoing top 3 strings and going (G)GDG or (A)AEA etc

**first string** · Nov-02-2007, 12:08pm

I'd agree with those that have said tenor is more versatile (that's why I have one instead of an OM). But the OM does have more power IMO (that's why I'm getting one as soon as I can scrape together the funds, and have dealt with my other 5ths tunings acquisition objectives). Then there's the resonator tenor, the tenor banjo, the GOM, and on, and on.

The nice thing about starting off with the tenor though, is that you can get a really pretty nice vintage instrument for the same amount that a fairly entry level OM is going to cost you. There's a thirties O-18T on that evil auction site at the moment that no one has bid on at $1,000. Not really a bad deal at all when you see what even the smaller six string prewar Martins are going for. And take it from me, these things sound great.

**EdSherry** · Nov-02-2007, 12:15pm

Jerry Thomasson did an amazing job playing Texas-style swing rhythm on a TG, backing his father the legendary fiddler Benny Thomasson. #And the Delmore Brothers showed what can be done with a duo consisting of guitar and TG. #

I like TG sometimes for single-string lead work, but prefer a regular (6-string) guitar for that.

But I confess I prefer an OM over a TG for most applications (certainly Celtic, but folk as well). # Neither works well in a bluegrass context (IMHO).

There's a reason why guitar/mando is so widely regarded as a duo style. #

I second Dan's suggestion of a resonator TG, but finding one can be a @#$%^.

**Mandodrummer** · Nov-02-2007, 12:27pm

I would love to have a Martin TG or try one of the new Breedloves but the cash just isn't there right now. The old Rigel's seem to come up a lot. Don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing but at least they're in the ballpark of what I can afford. I would probably be looking at something like a Trinity College in an Octave.

**EdSherry** · Nov-02-2007, 1:07pm

"Old Rigels"? #I think you mean "old Regals." #Rigel is a recent mandolin maker (which, unfortunately, closed its doors in 2006) that (to my knowledge) did not make TGs. #Regal made lots of TGs in the '20s and '30s.

Also check out the Harmony TGs from the '50s and '60s, which (these days) are pretty good value-for-money (IMHO).

GoldTone makes a pretty good new TG:

http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/TG18.htm

Also, check this site out for useful info on TGs:

http://www.tenorguitar.com/

Have fun!

**Mandodrummer** · Nov-02-2007, 1:16pm

My bad. REgal. People seem to be most proud of the "pre-war" models.
Elderly's web site says the Gold Tones sound best tuned CGDA. I'm not in the know enough to understand how that would affect my chord shapes coming from the GDAE world.

**steve V. johnson** · Nov-02-2007, 1:33pm

When I had both a TG and OM here, the one thing that struck me was that chording on the TG wasn't as full. It was a bit more like chording on a banjo, while the OM sustained some more.

Stylistically, going against the grain a bit, that is, playing an instrument that is unsual for a particular genre/type of music, can be a great attention-getter for a band...

Interesting discussion here, thanks!

stv

**snowgood** · Nov-02-2007, 2:04pm

For those who think OM are not versatile, I'd humbly suggest you listen to Roger Landes (founder of ZoukFest) who can make an octave sound Celtic but can also like a 12 string or blues guitar.

Mike

**JeffD** · Nov-02-2007, 3:05pm

OK, your stated goal is to add another voice to the jam. The tenor guitar is probably not "other" enough for you.

If your goal was to round out your arsenal, I would go with a tenor guitar, because it's so darn fun to play, or a mandola (CGDA) for its own kind of outrageous fun.

I got myself a very inexpensive tenor guitar, and I am loving it. But it will compete with other guitars in a jam situation, and I don't want to go head to head with them. (They get annoyed.)

**first string** · Nov-02-2007, 3:22pm

Originally Posted by (snowgood @ Nov. 02 2007, 15:04)

For those who think OM are not versatile, I'd humbly suggest you listen to Roger Landes (founder of ZoukFest) who can make an octave sound Celtic but can also like a 12 string or blues guitar.

Mike

I guess as with just about any two instruments, there are things that you can do on one that you can't do on the other, and vice versa. Or at least can't do as easily...

But when it comes down to it the only really definitive difference between the instruments we're talking about is whether they have double courses or not. The single strings allow you to bend notes more easily, and fingerpick more easily; the double courses make it easier to get a big sound for rhythm work.

**first string** · Nov-02-2007, 3:29pm

Originally Posted by (sliabhstv @ Nov. 02 2007, 14:33)

When I had both a TG and OM here, the one thing that struck me was that chording on the TG wasn't as full. It was a bit more like chording on a banjo, while the OM sustained some more.

I don't think the TG has less sustain. It just has less strings. So it is harder to get a really big powerful sound from strumming. That said, I have definitely found that there are a lot of ways to work around that, or even to work with it.

**allenhopkins** · Nov-02-2007, 3:42pm

[1] Tenor guitar tuned as designed (CGDA) is in the same range as mandola. Octave mandolin goes down to the low G (same as standard guitar 6th string 3rd fret), so you get a greater pitch range with the OM.
[2] One thing to consider is that mandolin and OM are tuned to the same note values (GCAE) an octave apart. In a duet you would want to ensure that you weren't just mirroring each other's "lead" lines, or making the same chords, to avoid sameness. The tenor guitar/mandola range is great for harmony, and the different textures of mandolin vs. tenor guitar (single vs. double strings, different overtones and resonances from the different body shapes) might be interesting.
[3] My suggestion (as you can see from my overstated signature below) is get both and try both. You will undoubtedly find some tunes that work better with one, others that work better with the other. I love playing with the different ranges, sonorities, textures and voices of everything from mandolin to mandocello, with all the stops in between.

**jmcgann** · Nov-02-2007, 4:25pm

Originally Posted by

Ya don't hear a lot of Octave in bluegrass

Ya do if you hear me at the Cantab Lounge in Cambride MA at the bluegrass Tuesday night sessions

**groveland** · Nov-02-2007, 4:47pm

Originally Posted by

Ya do if you hear me ...

You mean it's okay to do that?

Just kidding, of course. Got any clips? #That would be fun for us non-locals.

**Ken Sager** · Nov-02-2007, 4:56pm

Originally Posted by (allenhopkins @ Nov. 02 2007, 14:42)

[1] Tenor guitar tuned as designed (CGDA) is in the same range as mandola. #Octave mandolin goes down to the low G (same as standard guitar 6th string 3rd fret), so you get a greater pitch range with the OM.

I tune my tenor to GDAE just like an OM. The only thing missing is double courses, but I wouldn't say double courses are necessarily louder. I've played some tenors that are every bit as loud as the loudest OM.

Tuned GDAE a tenor will have the same range as an OM, and nearly the same range as a 6-string, missing only the E, F, and F# below the low G.

**JeffD** · Nov-02-2007, 5:00pm

Originally Posted by (first string @ Nov. 02 2007, 16:22)

But when it comes down to it the only really definitive difference between the instruments we're talking about is whether they have double courses or not. The single strings allow you to bend notes more easily, and fingerpick more easily; the double courses make it easier to get a big sound for rhythm work.

Well the TG sounds more guitarish, and the OM sounds more mandolinny.