Kentucky brand mandolins

[Pam2]

Here on forums (and in other parts of the world) we keep hearing about Kentucky mandolins. Be it an A model or,varying f-models we got some built here by this guy some there by that guy and so on.... Whats all the hype?
Im seriously asking because I do not know! We all know about Gibsons in the mandolin world, Martins in the guitar world, John Deere in the tractor world so what Im asking is just where does a Kentucky rate? Now before you fly me back an answer keep in mind no one should diss anyone elses equipment (either by choice or economic standpoint) but Im still wanting an honest answer on this issue because
I own a pair of them myself

[catmandu2]

If it is a pair of Kentucky mandos you own, then you should be aware that they're among the best low-budget mandos on the market.

[Stephen Perry]

Kentucky is a brand name owned by Saga Music. Saga has the instruments built overseas at various places. As to hype, I'm not sure what you mean.

I don't see excessive publicity and any resulting commotion, just normal discussions. I don't see exaggerated or extravagant claims in Saga's advertising, at least no more than in anyone else's. No "hype job." I see no advertising or promotional ploy except supporting product changes. I don't see anything deliberately misleading.

As to rank, they're a well thought of brand of modestly priced mandolins built by independent suppliers and imported from overseas, with the usual intermittent changes, upgrades, improvements, shifts in production place and method, and so on. In general I look at companies that start or become vertically integrated as having a better chance of generating a consistent line through time. I believe Saga is moving the Kentucky brand in that direction with either ownership or direct control of production for some of the Kentucky models. That should ideally increase their informal "rank." By vertical integration, let's contrast a US maker who distributes only directly to the public with a bulk wholesaler shipping retailers a wide range of brands they simply buy overseas and distribute. The former is completely vertically integrated with complete control, the latter has no control except selection and is not integrated. Most companies are somewhere in between. I believe Saga was in that in between state, providing specifications and negotiating with manufacturers to produce their products. I see this as inferior to those owning their own production facilities. Thus I'd rank Kentucky below Eastman in far east production and Gibson and Weber in domestic production. In my mind, the move to direct control in production of some of their Kentucky models moves the brand up in ranking. The quality and performance of those particular instruments has indeed risen from my evaluation and from the discussion here. The increased integration has brought immediate rewards.

I suspect the same things happen with other industries.

Perhaps you'd care to explain what you intended by use of the word "hype." That might trigger more focused discussion.

[Ken Berner]

Should be no hype, with the exception of the higher-end KM-1000 and KM-1500 and Dawg models built in Japan in the '80s. They were built by a master luthier, I believe, and highly regarded.

[John Flynn]

This message board gets a lot questions that are versions of, "What is the best X mandolin under Y dollars?" This kind question is truly unanswerable, almost like a Zen koan. But people still attempt to answer these questions and the answers are very often the Kentucky models, because they are decent entry level instruments that look more or less like famous instruments and are readily available at relatively low prices. I do think they are generally a cut above the other Asian-made brands at comparable prices in tone, playability and quality.

BTW, I've noticed the typical answers to these questions have changed over the years. The answers used to be something like "get a Mid-Mo," or "look on the used market," which I think represent better advice, but people need their "looks," even for under $500, so I guess it's just easier just to say "Kentucky."

[gnelson651]

The hype changes as new models comes out.

When I first joined this board, the big talk for low end mandolins (anything under $1,500) was Michael Kelly or Mid-Mo. Then Eastman was the next big-bang-for-the buck.

You still see die hard owners of above mentioned mandos keep the hype fire alive. My observation is that most people will suggest what they own because that is their experience and to validate their choice.

Now the hype you see are JBovier, Jade or Kentucky.

[earthsave]

Should be no hype, with the exception of the higher-end KM-1000 and KM-1500 and Dawg models built in Japan in the '80s. They were built by a master luthier, I believe, and highly regarded.

Exactly.

[Celtic Saguaro]

I generally agree with Glenn above. Many people who've bought something are only going to tell you how great it is, unless they've bought a real stinker.

From personal experience the MKs were a bit over-rated once the price started going up. Mid-Mo's being flat-top are a different animal from an arch top, so comparison is a bit tricky. #For instance, that style is more likely to sound better to the player, and, without a pickup, be quieter for anyone else listening. Eastmans are indeed better than the run-of-the-mill Asian-built instruments used to be, no question about it. But if what we hear is true that standard may now be higher than it used to be just a year or two ago. #Also with the recent price increases there isn't a huge advantage for an Eastman over, say, a Breedlove. I haven't tried a Bovier, a Jade or one of the newest Kentuckys.

Listening to what others say is fine as long a you take it with a grain of salt. Back when I started playing in the 70s, it was tougher to hear from mandolin players who were interested in anything, but bluegrass. #Consequently, you'd rarely hear anyone say much encouraging about an oval-holed mandolin. Even the old Gibson A-styles were looked on by most people in the magazines as just something to learn on till you could get something better. #Things are much better now with the internet. You can hear about bowlbacks without people snickering. You can hear people who know the Gibson F-5 sound doesn't fit with what they are trying to play, as well as from people who wouldn't play anything else.

[Ken Olmstead]

I think the KM1000 issued recently created a lot of "hype" or excitement because of the liniage connected to the Sumi built Japanese versions, which are held in high regard for good reason. The thread with the "Scruggs" model and the rumors of the KM1500 being put out is also pretty exciting for the same reasons. I played a new KM1000 locally, and it had a loud, bold voice and I thought that 6 months of playing would make it an insane value!! The really new 250 that I played from China is so much better in sound and playability than my Korean made one that it is tempting to upgrade my Mexico mandolin! I think Stephen Perry is right (great guy to buy from by the way..shameless plug) if I understand the vertical integration thing, Kentucky has had consistancy issues over the years which have resulted in exceptional mandolins (at any price) and standard import quality with the normal issues that accompany them. I certainly don't look down on anyone that plays a Kentucky, I know several amazing players that play them by choice. I often consider banking 5 grand and picking up that paint pealing KM1000 myself!!

[Pam2]

Well I see I struck a chord (pardon the pun) with some of you and spurred useful response in yet others. Rephrasing
my question and using any other description but hype would
not have produced the responses I got from you artists and those relying on sales. I assure you its my goal too to see a mandolin in every hand I can too.Those who have thousands and those who do not "just sell them what you can" is that how it is? Every single instrument is unique and theres a lemon in your Weber,Gibson,Gilchrist,Eastman,Kentucky and any other line out there just as there is with the vehicle manufacturers. I know what sounds good and what doesn't. I do in fact own a pair of Kentuckys (A&F) and they are no exception to the inconsistency found all across todays market in any category. Slap it together/box it up/out the door, thats the mentality worldwide and most of you should be able to agree on that.
In effort to elaborate on my initial question let me say this, I heard my instruments, then played my instruments before I bought my instruments. I based my decision to buy my instruments based on thier performance (though short term acquaintance) I didn't bother
to go home first and research here or anywhere else as to whether or not it was made by this guy or that guy here, there or, anywhere. I still haven't done that because I don't care as long as my instruments are still working with and for me. I honestly posted this question because I have seen "hype" as I choose to call for this brand. And just where else could I get such diversity in answer to this question than right here???? Should I call someone relying on instrument sales and ask them? - no Should I get
ahold of the manufacturer and ask them? - no. I posed this question to the "artists" (majority) who have a steeply higher tendancy to give a straight up answer. If I knew the
answer I wouldn't have asked the question. And I do appologize for those offended by my poor focus on this topic

[Stephen Perry]

Well, asking a different question in a different way will certainly result in different responses!

"Those who have thousands and those who do not "just sell them what you can" is that how it is?""

That's not at all how it is. Cognizant dealers select what they sell quite carefully and explain what they have well and objectively. Placing a line of mandolins on a wall and watching what people actually buy proves rather interesting. That's how I decide what to restock. I strongly suspect that's a routine method. I'll also not carry things I don't like the looks of inside.

"Every single instrument is unique and theres a lemon in your Weber,Gibson,Gilchrist,Eastman,Kentucky and any other line out there just as there is with the vehicle manufacturers."

I love the lemons. I can generally get them in on trade quite inexpensively and then turn them around. Everyone wins. The original owner gets rid of something that doesn't work, the manufacturer doesn't have a dud circulating. Of course, some players seem to specialize in taking good instruments and turning them into temporary duds. I'm not sure how that happens!

" Slap it together/box it up/out the door, thats the mentality worldwide and most of you should be able to agree on that."

I strongly disagree. The customers - the retailers mind you - are much more demanding in terms of quality, consistency, and marketability than ever before. The result is greater performance and variety at a wide range of price points. For me, Kentucky mandolins didn't do the job. They rethought the product, changed the product, increased quality control, and I've started handling them again. They're clearly focused on improvement. As is every single other brand owner I know. They love feedback and improvement. So I think you're quite off base. At least in my limited experience in the trade off and on over the last 15 years.

"I honestly posted this question because I have seen "hype" as I choose to call for this brand."

How do you define "hype"? I listed what I see on Wikepedia, in dictionaries, and the like. I don't see that with Kentucky. I see owners puffing their instrument, but that's typical to justify the purchase.

I think you'd be surprised at the number of straight answers you'll get privately from those in the trade. Best to ask about specific models. In most brands I consider some models quite a value and others not. And in talking with others, I believe most are looking at brands that way.

Performers don't evaluate instruments the same way as pure retailers and probably differently from those familiar with making instruments. I always poke around inside and won't carry instruments where I don't like what I see inside. Performers vary in their needs, skill at evaluation, and their motives, too.

That I don't regularly carry something doesn't mean I don't like it. I like Breedlove, but it isn't the line for my environment.

I like Kentucky pretty well. There are a few models I'll start carrying routinely if I expand to a walk-in venue. I'll continue to carry Eastman, consider one of the other low to mid lines, and see what I can do to pick up a big label brand. Like the retailers I know I'll continue to sell what I believe in and avoid slamming brands I don't carry. I know some people have asked me why I don't like X or Y brand when all I do is not carry them. That's a silly way to think. Small retailers can't carry every brand!
Any other questions?

[Steve Ostrander]

I have an Eastman md615 and a KY km855. The Eastman surpasses the KY in fit and finish, and overall sound. Having said that, there is something that I like about the sound of the KY, especially in the bass tones. There is a woodiness there that I don't usually find in Pac Rim models less than 1K. I've had it about 2 months and I'm hoping it will open up some.

Also had an MK. The fit and finisih on the MK also surpassed the KY. It had nice big frets which I prefer, and better tuners that kept in tune. But it just didn't have the tone I was looking for, so I let it go. I think the top was too thick. It sure was pretty, though.

[f5loar]

I look at the cafe here as our version of Consumer Reports on line. You won't find this kind of mandolin review anywhere else or least I've not found a source. So just like Consumer Reports says the newly designed Toyota XX is the best bang for the buck you'd be a fool to think it was as good a car as say the BMW 750Li. Same here, what the hype here is about the new KM1000 and how this appears by most of us here who have one think this is the best bang for the buck today. I've not heard about other models by KY. While last year Eastman 615,815 were the best bang for the buck this new KM1000 is getting better reviews then the Eastman did last year. It's got better quality, as good as Eastman on materials but tends to have a better sound quality and better playability and it cost slightly more then the 615. Grant you not all 1000s are the same nor would be the Eastmans. Some will test drive one on the wall that has not been set up and say it's a dog and never look back and then come here and say how bad it was. Others can tell from the wall hangers that this one only needs a good set up and it would be one fine mandolin. When I started out the Gibson F5 was $600. My first mandolin my mother got with saving GreenStamps,a Kay A model. I'd say today she would have gotten me the KM1000 with her MasterCard points but would not condsider a Gibson F5 at $12,000 plus. And I would probably have learned better on the 1000 then that hard to play Kay.

[mandolirius]

I always thought the 250S and 380S were pretty good starter instruments. There was a guy in town who was buying them up off ebay, giving them a good set up and maybe a finger rest. I steered quite a few of my students that way.

The best sounding Kentucky I ever played was John Moore's KM1500.

[Stephen Perry]

Funny thing here is that in the shop I couldn't sell the KM1000. People would come in and try the KM, then buy an Eastman. Weird. I have my own opinions on why etc and on the instruments, but who cares about those? I just look for the credit card votes. If I could get the KM1000 I'd have two sitting up there with the Eastmans etc. I'd like to get a big anchor brand, too.

[f5loar]

John Moore had an 80's KM1000 or that's all I ever saw him with. He may have owned the 1500 too. Mike Lambert a very gifted mandolin/guitar picker in my area still plays his old 80's KM1500. I'm sure there are many pros/semi-pros still playing their old 1500s but none come to mind.

[allenhopkins]

I have a feeling that what Pam means by "hype" was the discussion of the uber-Kentucky designed by Sumi hanging on the wall as a prototype for all other Kentuckys, etc. etc. #One of the differences that I seem to be hearing about the brand (and I must confess I've never owned one) is that production was moved not just from factory to factory, but from country to country (Japan-Korea-China), and that construction and quality varied quite a bit as a result. #Recent posts on the KY's have been, as a rule, positive.

IMHO, variations among individual instruments of the same brand can be of such magnitude as to eclipse generalizations about sound, finish etc. #May not be as true about mass-produced factory instruments, with less scope for individual craftsmanship, but still no two pieces of wood are exactly alike, and I've never heard two mandolins, even of the same brand and model, that didn't have significant differences in sound and "feel."

For that reason, seems a trifle dicey to generalize that Brand X always beats Brand Y. #Probably safe when your comparing mass-produced Asian imports to hand-crafted small-builder custom models -- but even then, you'll find the unusual import that has "that sound" and competes with its more expensive cousins. #How many threads have I read where some picker says, "I took my No-Name to the jam last week, and everyone said it sounded as good as So-and-So's Big-Name." #Leaving aside that "everyone" may not have wanted to hurt his feelings, the guy could have had the one in a thousand No-Name that transcends the limitations of its humble origins on the banks of the Yangtze or wherever.

[Billfiddl3r]

The hype is because kentucky mandolins are affordable instruments. I've owned 4 kentuckys a 700,800,805 and a 1500 and 3 gibsons 1933f5mm 1951f5mm 1999f5mm
and all my kentuckys sounded far better than these
high end webers.

[catmandu2]

There is a woodiness there that I don't usually find in Pac Rim models less than 1K...

I have a cheapie 150s that possesses this quality. I wonder, Steve, if there's a consistently better sounding/playing mando for ~$200?

[Stephen Perry]

There's no consistently "better" sounding mandolin because different players play differently, producing different results. And players can't agree on what sound is "best." There's no "best." Can't happen.

One fellow describes a mandolin as warm, easy to play. The fellow before described it as muddy and unfocused, lacking power. Who is correct?

A mandolin comes in. It sounds weak. The bridge is leaning towards the fingerboard. Straightening the bridge up brings it to life. Has it become better all of a sudden?

Two mandolins come in, neither set up. A player favors one over the other. After setup, he still favors one over the other. After a year of playing, he again favors one over the other. There's no assurance the player will be favoring the same mandolin at each stage.

I see this pattern all the time. No "best" based on performance.

The other way to look at "best" is by looking for consistency and quality of construction. Does the instrument follow the general standards of construction used in the industry as to wood choice, design, and execution? I suppose a trip throw NAMM with a light, mirror, hackinger gauge, and notebook would get this data.

[Siminole]

I have both a KM675 and an Eastman 615. I am the 2nd owner for both of them, and the 675 Kentucky I have owned for many years, the Eastman, of course, is somewhat newer. I really like both of them and have no intention of selling either. I can't say which I had rather play as they have a bit of a different sound and unique in their own way. If I had to part with one, I couldn't honestly tell you which instrument I would keep. "Keep on Picking"

Al

[g-mac]

I don't think it's hype as much as plain old value for the money. The 250s was my first mando. It still is my only mando, since I've bought and then sold two others that I thought would be "upgrades". I'd play the new ones for a while and then notice that my 250s would start get most of my playing time. It definitely has that woodiness that was mentioned above.

I'm not saying I'll never get another mando, but for under 300 bucks and hundreds of hrs of playing time and genuine enjoyment, my Kentucky ends up seeming like quite the bargain!

[catmandu2]

There's no "best." #Can't happen.

Still, out of all the $200 pacrim mandos that I've played, the Kentucky's were all usually "better" than the rest.

[kudzugypsy]

i think the KM-1500 was the best "value" mando of all time, and why they are still so desired..but these were NOT cheap - my 1987 KM-1500 listed for $1595 with a slightly lower street price (you could buy a Nugget/Gil/Monte then for around $2k) - and they all didnt sound great - i know, i bought 4 other KM-1500s over the years hoping to find a mate to mine and none sounded as good as the '87. they were all good, but some of them just blew you away with how good they sounded and how they cut in a jam. the funny thing is i still take my old KM-1500 out to jams and i LOVE to see the expression on peoples faces when they see the Kentucky name on the headstock...its like what??? arent those cheap mandolins? why does it sound better than Bubba's Gibson?

i was in a music store the other day that specialized in acoustic bluegrass instruments (Zepps in NC - great place) and i was just blown away by the new Kentucky's - even the low end solid top A's...folks, these are A LOT better than what we had to play in the 70's-80's. you can get a really good mandolin (A) for under $350 - that aint bad.

i never was that impressed with the MKs and Eastmans as with the KYs...i'm speaking tonally impressive, the MKs & Eastmans do have a little more bling that most beginners/novices go for.

[Stephen Perry]

I thought the Kentuckys had more "bling." Compare KM-855 to 600 series Eastman line.

Don't misunderstand me; I like the new Kentucky line just fine. I've got a KM-505 now that is really quite pleasant! And very inexpensive. The lines are all different, and it's quite a miracle we've got such a range of budget choices.