Wet tuning

[jc2]

Has anyone tried a carefully tuned wet tuning like the concertinas and so forth sometimes use? I tried it tonight, first very carefully got it tuned, and then raised the upper string of each pair maybe 2Hz, enough only that it sounded like a very weak chorus effect. Effectively I had two sets of four which were in tune within the set, but not with the other set. It didn't sound out of tune, it sounded WET. Have you ever done this on purpose?


jc2

[Rod Freeland]

Could you please explain what this is about? #"Wet tuning"? #"... a very weak chorus effect" --#I'm completely in the dark.

[JamesPV]

I think this refers to a method of tuning used on accordions and similar instruments that have two or more reeds covering each single note. Rather than being tuned exactly in unison, they are intentionally set very slightly out of tune, which affects the tone of the overall sound the listener hears for each note, and more so for chords. The more deviation between the pitches of the reeds for a single note, the more "wet" the sound is said to be; conversely, the nearer to unison tuning, the more "dry" the tone from each pair of reeds. Absolute unison (total "dryness") presumably wouldn't result in tone different from that of a single reed, except for increased volume.

If I recall correctly, accordions used for French cafe music, for instance, are tuned this way, resulting in the somewhat "emotional" or "sentimental" sounding tone typical of that style. Double reed harmonicas can have the same quality, more or less. The same circumstance (though not a matter of intentional mis-tuning) probably also causes some of the ringing quality in the sound of a 12-string guitar, for example.

I hadn't really thought of trying this on mandolin(intentionally; it's hard enough to get the pairs in unison), but it's an interesting idea.
Jim

[JeffD]

Rather than being tuned exactly in unison, they are intentionally set very slightly out of tune, which affects the tone of the overall sound the listener hears for each note, and more so for chords.

That is my understanding as well. I first heard it in button box accordions.

I once went and de-tuned my mandolin, attempting to achive the same effect. I think you need more precision than the tuner (pitch fork) I had in those days. With a good tuner today it could probably be done.

I don't know if I would like a "wet" sounding mandolin. I suspect it would get kind of muddy sounding, especially up the neck.

[Fretbear]

You can kind of experience a similar effect when recording (with timing, rather than tuning) by doubling an identical track, which will just sound louder, or playing the same lines on another track which will give a different effect, as it is impossible to exactly quote yourself.

[Bertram Henze]

Reminds me of this thread.

Wet tuning affects the way both string oscillations affect each other. This can be heard much stronger with a piano (they have triple strings): in a correctly (dry) tuned piano, the triple oscillations create a short and loud attack followed by a long soft ring. The typical out-of-tune saloon bar piano, on the other hand, has a generally softer honkytonk sound - the attack is gone.

When a course goes out of tune in mid-tune on me, I make do with the wetness, but dry it up immediately afterwards because I like the attack.

Bertram

[Bren]

What about blues players like Yank Rachell? Would that be similar to "wet"?
I thought the reason for double coursed strings in a mandolin was more for an even tremolo, rather than volume ... ?

[Jim Garber]

What about blues players like Yank Rachell? Would that be similar to "wet"?

I believe that Yank played with octave strings on the lower two courses -- sort of 12 string guitar effect. The concept of wet tuning in accordions gives you a subtle vibrato when playing those notes. I have a 3 row button box that is used for Tex-Mex music that I believe is tuned that way.

[MikeEdgerton]

Half the time I'm tuned this way by accident.

[whistler]

I've played around with 'wet' tuning on mandolin (I've even taken it to the extreme of separating the strings by a semitone - 3rds, 4ths even. *Very* strange, but it makes putting on a new set of strings more fun. ) The results are
interesting, but I wouldn't want to make a habit of it. On a free reed instrument (accordion, harmonica etc.), the note has theoretically infinite sustain, so this is not an issue. The note from a plucked string, however, has a fast decay, so the sound is too short-lived to benefit from the effects of wet tuning. Furthermore, one of the effects of having two strings tuned to an identical pitch is that they mutually excite one another - as the vibrations in one string die away, the vibrations in the second string re-excite the first string - thus increasing the sustain. If the strings are not at exactly the same pitch, this effect is diminished considerably and the overall sound is weaker.

I thought the reason for double coursed strings in a mandolin was more for an even tremolo, rather than volume ... ?

Bren - I'm not sure that there is one single reason for double courses. Double coursed instruments have been around a long time and I don't think there is any evidence that they were all used for playing tremolo (I've never heard any Renaissance lute music with tremolo in it). I think it is more likely that the tremolo came to be a feature of mandolin music partly because the double courses facilitated it; partly also as a means of overcoming the problem of lack of sustain. The use of tremolo might, in turn, have been a reason why the mandolin has retained its double courses.

wet tuning like the concertinas and so forth

jc2 - Sorry to be pedantic, but concertinas cannot be wet tuned as they only have one reed per note. Accordions, melodeons and harmonicas (those with two reeds per note) often are, to varying degrees. 'Musette' tuning is the very wet, Parisian style. 'Swing' tuning is almost dry, but not quite.

[Bren]

I believe that Yank played with octave strings on the lower two courses -- sort of 12 string guitar effect

I was thinking of the higher strings which were "not quite" in unison (as well as slack-tuned) - more like a honky-tonk piano

[jc2]

to answer RodF, a chorus pedal for electric instruments splits off the signal and feeds it back in with slight pitch distortion, the knobs on the effect box usually control delay, for a slight reverb; amount of pitch change; and how many times it feeds back in. If I am wrong about this I hope to be corrected.

The tuning I was trying last night ended up with four strings in tune and the second of each pair off by less than two Herz, because I know I was getting less than two beats. They may have been off by less than one Hz even. It was pretty interesting because it made the mandolin sound stronger(?), like maybe more penetrating without being louder. Eventually, it became irritating, like playing with an effect turned on, after a while you just want to turn it off. Or maybe it takes getting used to.

[steve V. johnson]

"... a chorus pedal for electric instruments splits off the signal and feeds it back in with slight pitch distortion ..."

The basis of a chorus pedal is to take the original signal and delay it in time then recombine it with the original signal. #The time difference is what makes the "chorus" effect. #At its root, "chorusing" is a time-based effect, as are reverbs and delays.

I think that the effect called chorusing is an offshoot from "flanging" which was developed to mimic the effect of someone slowing the reels of an analog tape recorder by putting a finger on the flange of the reel while the machine was running. We used to do this with two tape machines, flanging on one and leaving the other running normally and combining the slowed signal (which was never completely consistent, since it was done by hand) from that machine with the unflanged one, and printing the combination to a third recorder to get the chorusing effect. Of course we could never do it the same twice...

Many pedals that do chorusing effects, do include more functions, including distortion (not a time-based effect), reverb (simulating the sound in an acoustic space), discrete delays (repeating effects) and feedback (various ways to recombine the original [dry] signal and the delayed signals.

Folks have written about detuning and the sounds one can get that way here before, but what makes it tough is playing with others that way. # Playing with a piano or electronic keyboard can be cool, playing with a bass can be cool. #But playing with other acoustic fretted instruments often results in the 'wet' mandolin (or octave/zouk) sounding just plain out of tune in relation to the others. #

Playing with a fiddler or other instrument with physically adjusted tuning (trumpet, or a fretless banjo ...) can be fine if the other player has enough 'ear' and control to move their intonation (on the fly!) to match yours. #If the fiddler isn't prepared to do that, again, you just sound out of tune.

I'll probably try this tuning thing again some time, when I've mastered playing in tune. #I'm prepared to be patient.



stv

[Jkf_Alone]

i started writing a reply, but steve said what i wanted to say

[Eddie Sheehy]

Thanks for giving me an excuse I can use..... My mandolin usually sounds "wet" when I'm "wet". But since the listeners are also "wet" they don't seem to mind. Guiness is great for "wet" tuning.

[allenhopkins]

Another example of "wet" tuning is the Hohner "Echo Harp" harmonica, with two reeds for each note tuned slightly differently. Produces an "echoey," vibrato effect.

For me, "wet" tuning is unavoidably associated with "schmaltz," if you know what I mean -- a sentimental kind of sound. I would think "wet" tuning would clutter up fast passages, but might be effective on waltzes, etc. Combining "wet" tuning with tremolo might just be 'way too far from "clean," IMHO.

[Gerard Dick]

[QUOTE]Half the time I'm tuned that way by accident.
Me too. If you tune the second string of the pair by ear, you can hear this effect as you are getting close. The tone starts to pulsate. The frequency of the pulsations decreases as you approach the desired pitch. When you are spot on it doesn't "wah-wah-wah"anymore.