"theory"

[MikeEdgerton]

Check the time zone and time on your local PC and log back in.

[lgc]

"Theory is (among other things) the language of music. It's a way that musicians communicate."

I'm pretty sure music is how musicians communicate. Miles Davis was apparently floored by Hendrix' lack of theory. To each his own sure. It does seem that contemporary acoustic music has pushed theory over feel. What I mean is that Theory is pushed way more that context. If you don't know where music comes from you really can't take it anywhere.

[Chip Booth]

OK, let's get down to the semantics of it all. If you know what 1-4-5 means, if you can struggle through some tab, then you have been exposed to some theory that was invented for those that havn't gone the final mile needed to actually read music.

Mike, I would say the use of Nashville System is the embodiement of theory, and that reading music is more of a skill, the same as reading tab.

That's a simplification, there is great theory in the rythmic aspect of reading, but not so much in the regurgitating of written notes.

Chip

[TNFrank]

Check the time zone and time on your local PC and log back in.

Ok, I think I've got my time fixed. I thought ya'll went from GMT but I guess it's from EST and since I'm CST I'm -1 instead of -6.
P.S.
Ditto on what IGC said.

[Chip Booth]

"Theory is (among other things) the language of music. #It's a way that musicians communicate."

I'm pretty sure music is how musicians communicate. #

I would clarify this by saying that say theory is how musicians communicate about music. Music is how musicians communicate to the listeners, and those listeners can (and should) include other musicians.

Chip

[Jim Broyles]

Mike I agree with most of your post regarding getting down to the semantics of it. #Here's where I differ a little. I don't think the Nashville Numbering System, which really wasn't anything new even when they first came up with it, was intended to bypass reading, but merely as a form of shorthand. I can't sight read a score. I can s-l-o-w-l-y read it if I have to, but if you want me to play a song you have to let me hear it first. However, I do know enough about theory that if I know a song , for example in the key of G, and there's an Em or an Am in it, and a singer says, "Can you play it in B?" #I know that since in G, the Em is the 6 and Am is the 2, I can easily find the correct chords in B. There is no guesswork. G to C is the same as B to E and it is ALWAYS the same. That's what is so great about music.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

TNFrank,
What exactly do people object to when they tell you you need to learn theory anyway? If you play well, where's the trouble?

If I saw someone struggling with chords or a melody and they were looking for assistance, I'd offer to help them learn some of the chord patterns, notes, etc., but if they're doing fine, I'd never presume to say they needed to learn theory.

Cheers
Mark

[lgc]

Usually when I communicate verbally about music it goes," Aw man, did you hear that run. That was awesome." or some general variation of that. "Or that sucks. I'm gonna go play some pinball."

[TNFrank]

I do know when something sounds sharp or flat and what that means. I know(at least I think I know) what a half step and full step are on the fret board. I always try to learn the fret board, what the notes are(G,A,B,C, then D,E,F,G, then A,B,C,D, then E,F,G,A.) as far as the strings go and I always get the sounds of the fret positions into my head so that after a while I can practice without even having the instrument in my hands, just because I know that if my finger is on this string at that fret it'll sound like this and if I want it to sound different I'll need to move my finger to another string at such n such a fret. It's like I see/hear it in my head. I guess that's like some math guys see the numbers in their heads and can do stuff with math that I'd only dream about.

[Chip Booth]

TNFrank, the way you are hearing the sound son the fretboard is a great skill. #Now all you need is the names for those sounds you hear in your head, and a discussion of how they interact with chords ands all the guess work is gone. #

I understand how theory discussions can look like giberish in the forum. #Often they start in the middle and assume you have some common vocabulary. #It now sounds to me like maybe you are open to the idea of learning more theory, you simply need the right environment. #If you can find someone to sit down with you and go over a few concepts in a clear manner, where you can ask questions and make sure you "get it", then you are gonna be in great shape!

If your in Idaho let's have a coffeee and chat
Chip

[TNFrank]

I had the same problem with math. Algebra looked like just a bunch of numbers. Then I got a teacher that started from the beginning and explained it to me slowly so I could get it and after that it wasn't nearly as hard. When some of ya'll talk theory to me I guess I understand how people feel when I talk cars or guns to them,LOL. My wife is always telling me I'm talking above their heads, now I know how they must feel.

[Khmando]

If you're playing and having fun, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

That being said, I do feel knowing the basics helps. I play some gigs where I'm just sitting in and I don't know the tunes. If somebody tells me what key its in, I can usually go from there. I do use my ear, but I also have a sense of what chords will come up because I know what chords are in each key, etc.

I think this can also be accomplished by trial and error and just from experience. You play enough tunes, after awhile you realize there's lot of tunes that start out with the G chord, then go to C, then back to G, and then to D, etc.

Speaking of religion, I heard a saying regarding that. It states: "Truth is one. Paths are many." The same thing could probably be said for music. As long as you get to where you want to go, does it matter how you get there?

[picksnbits]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Some people seem to be more suited to a methodical/analytical approach to studying music and some tend toward a more intuitive approach. You have to internalize the concepts some way before the music can come out of you, it's just a matter of finding the right approach for you. The problem with teaching formalized theory to intuitive learners is that most theory books are written by the more analytical folks, the intuitive folks are at a distinct disadvantage in writing books because they've never bothered assigning names to the concepts and who wants to take time to write it down when it's much more fun to just play :-) Being a bit more toward the intuitive side, I've thought about trying to develop a "Mandolin Method for the Non-Methodical Mandolinist", geared toward intuitive learners. Then again, what would be the point in writing a book for people that don't want to bother with reading books?

Actually it just came to me while typing this that my entire method can be boiled down to just two words, which I will now publish here to enlighten intuitive mandolinists everywhere.

"Just Play"

Oh, and if you want to share the method with some of those analytical types, you'll have to add a few words and it becomes:

"Just shut up and play"

[Jim Broyles]

Kh - I guess it depends on if the saying is true or not. What if truth is one, path is one? All religions cannot possibly be true, can they? I mean, if there are contradictions among the world religions, in the end, either one is true or they're all false. They can't all be true. This is why the religion analogy fails when it comes to music. The relationships among notes and intervals, etc. will never change. 1 to 4 is the same in every key.

[pickloser]

If you want to become a better musician than you already are, you should learn as much as you can about music and how it works. #Your brain is tracking, categorizing, and storing what you know about music. #It recognizes that music makes sense and is noting useful patterns, chord relationships, cool stuff to show and tell. #These are pieces of music theory. #You apparently have a knack for it. #You can continue to catalog this stuff as you happen to run across it, adding to your knowledge of music theory, whether or not you call it that. #But you can learn more useful stuff more quickly if you just suck it up and study a little bit. #Music makes sense. #It's beautifully logical. #There's only a little math. #Much of it is vocabulary--words #that describe concepts that are useful, and many of which you already know or suspect. #

If you look at any of the "regret" threads here, there's a common refrain. #"I wish I had learned more theory." #

By the way, you should also protect your knees and start investing. #And floss. #And call your mother. #

[Khmando]

Fair enough, bad analogy perhaps. I'm actually not religious.

[Michael H Geimer]

Theory makes things easier for me. Especially so with the Nashville Numbering System. There are plenty of BG songs written around the I, IV, V progression. Without theory to simplify things, we'd have to spell the chords out as G, C, and D for the key of G ... then B, E, and F# for the key of B, etc. Instead, all you've got to learn are the numbers 1 - 7.

But here's the best part. No matter what key I might choose, the IV chord always sounds like a IV chord! It could be a C chord in one song, or an E chord in a different song. The number describes the sound the chord creates in the context of the song.

If you are already spending time learning the sounds of your fretboard (time well spent IMO), I would think the Nashville Numbering System might be right up your alley. It is theory, and it's not rocket science, or even algebra.

Because I've taken the time to learn what each type of chord (I, IV, V, etc) sounds like, I can learn many songs by ear without picking up an instrument just by listening for the sound of the chord changes. I can learn a song on guitar, then pick up my mandolin and do a decent job playing it.

But hey, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it. But you might at least try it on for size.

- Mike

Psst ... I had to stop and think to myself, "What the heck is the IV chord in the key of B?" I could play it quicker than I could come up with its proper name E.

[buddyellis]

Suppose we're talking about reading a book and were to say 'alphabet, pronunciation, is it necessary'. The question would be patently absurd. Some rudimentary level of theoretical understanding is absolutely needed to be a decent musician, just as some fundamental knowledge of the english language is needed by someone attempting to read a book, or write a literary work.

Although the parallels are not exact -- obviously one can play some level of music without understanding 'hard theory', the most accomplished musicians do understand theory in some sense, whether by just understanding the intervals, or knowing the 'nashville system' or whatever. If you are going to interact with other musicians, some modecum of knowing the language would help immensely.

[TomTyrrell]

Music is music. A minor third is a minor third whether you know what it is called or not. If you can play the music you already know the theory, you just don't know the names.

[MikeEdgerton]

And then there is this. I seriously doubt that she can have a discussion about theory but she obviously has some sort of handle on it naturally.

[nashvillebill]

I hear what you're saying Frank, and I was pretty much the same for the first 20 years I played guitar, but learning some theory opened up a whole new understanding for me. Wish I'd done it 20 years sooner.

[Don Christy]

Music is music. A minor third is a minor third whether you know what it is called or not. If you can play the music you already know the theory, you just don't know the names.

But it's not a yes/no issue. Sure a minor third is a minor third and a dominant seventh is a dominant seventh. Either a lot of experience or a little theory and experience will give you some insight and what it likely means in the context of a progression.

An example: you're listening and trying to play along with some song and you figure out that it goes from a G to a D7. You play that D7 and think that sounds great, but it feels like it wants to go somewhere. Just because you can play a D7 chord in a song and hear the tension doesn't mean that you will intuit that it wants to resolve back to the root G chord.

Or understanding and anticipating a ii-V-I progression. Realizing that the ii is the V of the V can help you understand the drive this progression has.

A couple of hours studying theory and you'll understand AND ANTICIPATE those kinds of things when you hear them. Experience will also teach you these things, but likely over months or years and without the vocabulary to discuss it with others.

I'm an intermediate mandolin player and a beginning theory person. I find that as I pick up more theory my horizons expand.

Don

[TNFrank]

I guess if I was going to write music I'd get more into theory but playing something that's already been written all I need is a good ear and to know the chord that I'm hearing then copy what's being done in the song.
It's like a person enjoying a beautiful sunset, they don't have to know the theory behind light refraction and the layers of the atmospher to see the color and enjoy it. It doesn't hurt to know it but knowing it won't make the sunset any more beautiful.
For me music has always been and will always be about expressing myself in a creative way. As long as I can play and have fun then I'm fine without knowing theory. On the other hand, there are those that love to pick things apart and study things and I guess that's where theory comes in.

[TomTyrrell]

Those with no knowledge of the names wouldn't know they were playing a G or a D7. Those with a high level of innate ability would probably know where to go next even though they aren't aware of the name that describes where they are or where they are going. These are the people who tend to have very little patience with "theory."

[Don Christy]

I guess if I was going to write music I'd get more into theory but playing something that's already been written all I need is a good ear and to know the chord that I'm hearing then copy what's being done in the song.
It's like a person enjoying a beautiful sunset, they don't have to know the theory behind light refraction and the layers of the atmospher to see the color and enjoy it. #It doesn't hurt to know it but knowing it won't make the sunset any more beautiful.
For me music has always been and will always be about expressing myself in a creative way. As long as I can play and have fun then I'm fine without knowing theory. On the other hand, there are those that love to pick things apart and study things and I guess that's where theory comes in.

I think you can listen to music and really enjoy it without any theory. That's the equivalent to your sunset analogy. If on the other hand you want to paint that sunset, you would either need a lot of experience or you would need to understand at least a little color theory for painting.

You had a previous thread where you were mentioning that you were finding chords. With just a little bit of theory, your understanding of the fret board would increase dramatically and you could choose many different voicings for chords opening up a new vocabulary for playing. Not to say you couldnt get there with lots of careful attentive playing, but theory would help you get there faster.
don