Guitar vs. om for singer/songwriter stuff

[Bob Wiegers]

I love the OM and I enjoy singing folksy kinda songs (like Gillian Welch, for example) but bringing them together isnt quite sounding right.

I've been doing some singer/songwriter kinda stuff lately, and it's almost all with the guitar. it seems like there's not enough bass with the OM when I try to sing with it. and it's not only the lack of bass...I guess it's 6 notes vs. 4 notes that's making it less full-sounding.

is this just the nature of the beast? or is it b/c my relateively cheap TC? would a 5-course/cittern help with this issue? or a zouk? (not that I can buy anything right now) or perhaps I should drag a friend with a guitar into the mix? ideally that'd be great, but it's not too easy these days.

any thoughts? thanks.

[steve V. johnson]

I think that it just takes another way of thinking about the song and voice to use an OM with singing.

I've known of several players who have preferred to use an OM/zouk for singing. #One is a UK gentleman who
travels to the US on business, mainly plays mandolin in sessions, but when he sings he uses a nice (forgot the
maker/marque) OM, and it's wonderful.

Tho I am blanking on examples other than Donal Lunny and Andy Irvine, I seem to recall that many of the folks
I've heard singing with an OM used moving lines, either the melody of the song, counterpoint or harmonies to
the melody, or sort of cross-picking with 'fills' of melodic lines between the song lines (or sections).

I'm sure that other folks here will come up with the examples that I'm missing.... OH! #John Doyle is another one. I believe that he's sung with OM on both his solo CDs. OH! And that Chipper Thompson sings with all manner of OM/zouk instruments, in many different ways, and wonderfully, too!

As for bass... certainly a matter of taste... And maybe what one is accustomed to... #N.American songs that have more prominent bass lines benefit from a guitar, but other European songs often rely less on that bottom motion than we 'Mericans'
stuff does.

I really like lower male voices with an OM, the contrast in timbres is nice.

I'm pretty much rambling there, but it's my feeling that you just haven't found the arrangements
that are right yet... #I like the sound of OMs with voice, with songs. #Fwiw....



So I'd say just keep at it. Again, you're bound to get better help from other
folks here, too. Go for it.

stv

[Ken Olmstead]

I think it they just sound different to the ear and less comfortable, which is good! Keep working with it because there are too many guys walking out in front of the mike with the jeans, t-shirt, acoustic guitar and the same old generic sound. I know at the folk festival that I go to, the acts that are different in someway always get a better response than the same old over done shtick. Let you creativity prevail and find a way to make it fit, after hearing some of your stuff, I am confident you have the ability to make it come together!!

[Bob Wiegers]

thanks for the encouragement. yeah I think I just need to sit down and spend time figuring out some arrangements of my stuff. I'm really taken with Norman Blake's guitar style lately though, but I think you're right, working on doing something a little different would pay off.

[Brandon Flynn]

I am borrowing my friend's tenor guitar, and it works well for me for singer/songwriter music. It gives my mandolin skills a guitar sound. I think that is the guitar's only stronger point than mandolin, it's ability to accompany voice solo.

[first string]

I don't know what tuning/s you use, but if so far you have stuck to GDAE, give GDAD a try. I was getting a little frustrated with my tenor guitar, thinking that while it is great for melody, it doesn't have a full enough sound for chording--at least when playing without backing. Then I tuned the E course down to D, and it made a world of difference. A much fuller sound, which works very well for accompaniment. I'm still not quite as comfortable with it as the all fifths tuning (especially for lead work), but I can definitely see why so many Irish players favor it.

[Bob Wiegers]

I've actually been in ADAE for a while now and I'm really liking it. since I'm usually playing in the key of D or G. maybe I'll try out GDAD but that would really screw up my brain for a while.

[Khmando]

Hi,

I only do solo gigs every once in awhile, but I break out my octave mandolin just for something different for a song or two. It works for some songs better than others, so you have to experiment. I love it for minor key stuff.

I've seen Tim O'Brien accompany himself on the octave mandolin. Of course, he sounds great.

[bgjunkie]

I rented "The Mandolin and Bouzouki of Tim O'Brien" and now want an OM/zouk. He plays and sings some great songs on the video. Might be worth checking out to see what chord voicings he used when he sings.

[Bob Wiegers]

oh yeah that's a good one. of course his zouk is about as big as a guitar :-) I do like his definition of a zouk on that video: greek for "impossible to tune"

[Bob_Blackman]

Michigan singer-songwriter Kitty Donohoe accompanies some of her songs on cittern, though she usually plays guitar. I don't recall which songs use cittern, but you can hear samples from her CDs (the newest is "This Road Tonight") on cdbaby.com.

[steve V. johnson]

oflynny sez, " It gives my mandolin skills a guitar sound. "

That reminds me of the way John Carty plays a tenor guitar. He uses it the same as his tenor banjo,
that is, the way his hands work, but it has that lovely deeper, woody guitar sound.

stv

[mandognome]

I got interested in Bouzouki/OM because of hearing Tim O'Brien do that. In solo and duo settings I personally never got good enough at it to not end up feeling--and hearing from sound guys--that it consistently lacked bottom, even though I wrote and recorded and performed a number of songs that way. We know based on Tim O and the other great examples mentioned (and Beth Patterson) that it's certainly possible and glorious when done well. It worked a lot better for me in a band situation where there were other instruments filling out that range.

I too have had the thought that the complexity of the chord voicings on guitar (more notes) seem to help to carry a vocal song better than OM even when capoed where the lowest note is higher than that low G on OM. I'm sure that part of it is my tendency to play chords and or simple chord/melody on OM, but not very extensive liney stuff or contermelody on it, which really make that instrument cool along with some open droney strings.

That's an interesting perspective Steve on Euro versus US bass expectations.

This is one of the reasons for my goodbye to my Bridger OM and the advent of my future Gallatin mandocello. We'll see what new worlds open. Perhaps how to deal with an abundance of bass will be the subject of a later mandognome post!

[Bertram Henze]

To me my OM provides plenty of song accompaniment - I wouldn't trade it for a guitar. I play fingerstyle, used to use my own nails (like in this example) and a thumbpick, but since the nails tended to break more often lately, I switched to metal fingerpicks (FingerTones) and they sound even better.

Bertram

[Steve L]

I just want to expand a tiny bit on what Steve said. #I think sometimes people pick up a zouk looking for something a bit more "exotic" than a guitar but are so accustomed to the function guitars play that it ends up sounding to them like a guitar with something wrong with it. #I think this is often a result of people playing guitar-oriented things on the zouk instead of learning the instrument's inherent personality. #I believe people tend to hear what the zouk isn't rather than what it is. Guitars can sound really big and zouks can sound light and ethereal. #Bigger isn't always better (Let's behave ourselves here!) #Zouks can be very rhythmically powerful but don't have a lot of low end. #That's part of the charm for me (I play guitar as well.)

I think some of what is going on the The Decemberists thread is a result of this. To me what that guy is doing is playing stuff on the zouk that might work better on a 12 string guitar. #It doesn't bother me that he's doing it...that's his business. #I just don't think he's getting the most out of the instrument in that context. #

On the other hand, you could hardly describe the mandolin playing on "The Battle of Evermore", "Maggie May", or "Losing My Religion" as staggering examples mandolin playing in a technical sense, but it contributes so much to the character of those songs it's hard to care. #But I think in those cases the instrument is asserting it's own sonic personality.

[Bob Wiegers]

thanks again all, and very nice song Bertram: that's just the kind of thing I'm aspiring to, although so far my songs are more alt-folk than that.

I've got a mini-gig tomorrow night and I've been working on my 3 songs on guitar, yet wishing it could work out on the OM. so I took yalls advice and after a little time figured out 2 of them on the OM. I think it's still mostly guitar-style on the OM, but so far I'll take it over guitar-style on the guitar, since I'm not a great guitar player anyway. I'm really not good enough on the OM to do much besides rhythm while I'm trying to sing at the same time, but I did figure out a walkdown thing for one, and I'm working in some little breaks that are much better on the OM. so I think I'll get there. I am sticking with the guitar for one of the songs, although ironically enough it'll be capoed high enough to be roughly the same scale. it seems funny to be taking 2 instruments for 3 songs, but whatever works...

this will be my first non-church gig for the OM, and first for my original songs, so here's hoping it goes well.

[Danny Packer]

Hey bob,

I second the suggestion to try GDAD. For tunes in G keys and D keys it give you loads of open droning opportunities. I capo at the second and then have similar options for A and E keys. I think that sound is full and characteristically OM/Zoukie. I've never used ADAE, but it seems like it has similar potential. I'm mostly playing instrumental stuff, not singing, so I'm not sure about the bottom.

Hope you mini gig goes well.

Danny

[Ken Olmstead]

Bob,

This is a little like a guitar player thinking they can play bass. When they do it sounds like...a guitar player playing bass!! It takes time to learn how to sound like a bass player even though you know where all the notes are supposed to go. Anyway, it will progess as you practice and noodle on the songs and then you will have something unique to offer in your gigs and be able to share a very low-profile instrument with the public. Very cool stuff! Nothing wrong with playing guitar on some songs and OM on others. As a listener, I would enjoy that more any way.

[Bob Wiegers]

well here's a report of my mini-gig:

it was a bit of a disaster. actually I thought my playing/singing went OK, but the problem was I was pretty much the only one who could hear it. no PA, but that would've made it worse probably. it was in a community rec center gym, and there were kids running and screaming on the other half, so it was pretty much the worst possible "acoustics". I'm guessing outer space or under water may have been better (hmmm, if Mix does an OM, maybe I could try the under water thing) they wanted "background music" and that's certainly what they got.

so I did a couple songs, pretty much no one noticed. well one guy asked later if that was lute or a mandolin or what? I didnt even bother getting out the guitar for the other songs, as I got interrupted by announcments on a bullhorn (that no one could understand anyway).

ok thanks for letting me vent a little...I'm hoping the next time I play out goes a little better.

[John Flynn]

I really like the sound and the overall quality for the price of the TC OM's and Bob, yours sounds great on the "Simple Songs" download. Thanks for that, BTW, I really enjoyed it. But I have say, I don't think bass is the TC's strong suit. I think the shorter scale is an issue, as is the smaller body. By contrast, my Mendel OM has a larger body and longer scale (22.75") than the TC #and the bass just booms out of it. So in answer to your question, I don't think the problem is OM's in general. While the TC has some great qualities, it may not be the design you need for what you say you want out of an OM.

[Bertram Henze]

I'm guessing outer space or under water may have been better (hmmm, if Mix does an OM, maybe I could try the under water thing)

Yes, but take into account that sound travels much faster underwater, i.e. for given frequencies the wavelenghts are bigger, therefore the OM has to be bigger too to give good bass output (how big are ocean creatures that can sing bass?)

Don't look back to that mini-gig, it was not your fault, and things outside our control happen to us all. After all, the musician was more considerate than the venue, you were good and nobody noticed - better than the other way round.

Bertram

[Martin Jonas]

I can't think of that many singers who accompany themselves on zouk/OM -- it seems most bands have a non-singing zouk player. #Andy Irvine is probably the most prominent exception. #If you're worried about the bottom end, you could change down to mandocello. #Here are a couple of clips showing Steve Knightley (of UK folk band Show of Hands) accompanying himself on mandocello:

Tall Ships
Roots
Don't It Feel Good

It's a fifth lower than your OM, but it's still only four courses, so you may get some pointers from his approach, which is quite different (and more guitar-like) from Andy Irvine's. #The last clip may be the most instructive, as it shows the band's more stripped down duo configuration, without double bass, so Steve is holding down the bottom end on his own.

Incidentally, here is another clip showing Steve Knightley, which shows how to capture the audience in an unamplified impromptu performance in a noisy setting -- singing a song accompanying himself on cuatro (!) while standing on the counter in a late-night bar. Still only four courses, and probably less bottom end than the OM, but it works fine.

Widecombe Fair

Martin

[Bob Wiegers]

if you dont mind a progress report of sorts, I did try some alternate tuning (ADAD) and I've been having a good time with it.

I wrote a mellow little love song with it last night and I'm liking it so far. I did a quick recording but I've still got to work out some issues with the tune. of course the best part is that the wife really likes it, so mission accomplished no matter what instrument I'm playing. I tried it on the guitar too and I like it better on the OM. (actually I did need the guitar to find the right chord at one point)

I think a lot of it is just adjusting expectations and looking for what's there as opposed to what's not there (I suppose the same could be said for much of life, but I wont sermonize)

thanks again for all the insights. this is fun :-)