"f" versus "a" models?

[techfiddle]

Connie,
Kentucky brand mandolins get good reviews by several of the posters on the Mandolin Cafe as student and perhaps intermediate instruments. If you can get them at wholesale then it makes sense to me for you to get one.

To answer your question as to why you don't sell any mandolins it is your prices. They are higher than what other online suppliers are selling theirs for.

Even with the free shipping?

[TomTyrrell]

Even with the free shipping?

Yup, the biggest on-line store sells the 340S for $279.99 and the 380S for $349.99 - both with free shipping.

It is really hard to compete on price with those guys.

[TomTyrrell]

Agreed. Sameness doesn't have to be proven. All that needs to be proven is that just about everything else has a bigger effect - or another way to say it, any differences in tone between an A and an "equivalent" F are likely to be attributable to other much more significant effects, type of wood, type of strings, type of playing, age of instrument, dryness of insrument, age of strings, and a whole host of other things.


And, if I am not mistaken, the issue with the air chamber volume is that if the only difference is the scroll, the air chamber volume is the same. No?

All those factors you listed fall outside the realm of "equivalent." Those who want to justify their preference for the A models will either cite all those factors or just say they like the A models better. If the As and Fs sound the same it isn't logical to have a preference based on sound. Same is same.

The resonating surface A top (and back) is symmetrical. The resonating surface of the Fs is not symmetrical. The scroll itself is decorative, no effect on sound, but that little extra bit of free top carved to a different profile makes the difference.

I'm not sure whose thesaurus says "different" and "better" are synonyms but I assure you they are not. Many people prefer the more balanced tone of an A model, especially if they don't spend all their time chopping.

You are correct. This is not an air chamber thing.

[MandoBen]

... links across the top (click on the "Store" icon), or use the pull down menu on the top left.

The scroll down menu 'Store' just reloads the homepage, the only links across the top are: Sheetmusic | Advanced Literature | Scores, no mention of guitars or mandolins, although I see that these links actually go to pages with guitar/mandolin links.
I am using a Mac w/Safari and/or Firefox with Earthlink DSL, and that is how it appears to me.

[cooper4205]

...But I have to wonder why I haven't sold any. #The page gets tons of hits...

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but this page, http://beststudentviolins.com/guitars.html#mandolins does not appear to be linked to your homepage? I had to do a google search of "best student violins mandolins" to find it.

It's TOTALLY linked to my homepage. #Scroll to the top; #there are links across the top (click on the "Store" icon), or use the pull down menu on the top left.

Are you sure it is? I didn't see a link on the top that said Store, and when I went to the drop down box and clicked on Store, I couldn't find anything mandolin related, except some cases (plus the only way I knew that was there was by reading your post). You might want to make it a little easier to navigate.

[TomTyrrell]

Did you go all the way to the top of the page? The link puts you a bit lower than half-way down the page.

[techfiddle]

... links across the top (click on the "Store" icon), or use the pull down menu on the top left.

The scroll down menu 'Store' just reloads the homepage, the only links across the top are: Sheetmusic | Advanced Literature | Scores, no mention of guitars or mandolins, although I see that these links actually go to pages with guitar/mandolin links.
I am using a Mac w/Safari and/or Firefox with Earthlink DSL, and that is how it appears to me.

Hmm..not sure where you're trying to go. There's a pull down menu in the upper left corner, and then also, under the Google ad, there's this line:

Violins | Violas | Cellos | Basses | Bows | Cases | Guitars

[techfiddle]

...But I have to wonder why I haven't sold any. The page gets tons of hits...

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but this page, http://beststudentviolins.com/guitars.html#mandolins does not appear to be linked to your homepage? I had to do a google search of "best student violins mandolins" to find it.

Oh, I know what you're saying now. (sorry) There's no link to the guitar page on my store. I'll fix that. I did notice it yesterday and haven't gotten around to it.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention..

[mandroid]

Just bear in mind, being made of wood there is a natural variation.
and mass produced instruments will look the same as they are 'painted' all at the same time but the little things that a hand builder can alter to take advantage or accommodate the differences in the wood pieces individually cannot be done in masses.

but if the dealer you buy from sets up the instrument before putting it on the display peg, or returns to the case then sends it on to you
will be ready to play , whereas the warehouse shippers never open the box itself, you are the first one to see it after the factory put it in the box in what ever country it came from.

be prepared to return the Klinkers, as you are the first in-country
Quality Control Inspector.

[techfiddle]

Are you sure it is? I didn't see a link on the top that said Store, and when I went to the drop down box and clicked on Store, I couldn't find anything mandolin related, except some cases (plus the only way I knew that was there was by reading your post). You might want to make it a little easier to navigate.

No, you guys were right. I didn't know what you meant at first. But I fixed it; I added the links. I guess they got taken off because I just gave up. But I'll go in there Tuesday and pare all the prices down to the bare minimum, so I make like $10 on each one. That should help, also.

Thank you for your help~

[CES]

The price issue is, I'm sure, frustrating for you. BUT, when most people are looking to "get into the mandolin," they don't typically think about throwing a lot of money out there until they're sure their interest will last (unless they've played other quality instruments for a long time and understand that a handmade instrument is typically just better than the 200 buck laminate whatever on the walls of most stores). Also, it took some education for me to realize that you can get a pretty darn nice guitar off the rack for 500-1200 dollars (less if you go electric), while comparable quality in the carved top mandolin world costs more. As you stated earlier, price is definitely a consideration even for yourself!

Now for the only useful thing I can tell you...regardless of which one you choose, set-up is key. Definitely get it professionally adjusted locally. No matter how nice or expensive, if you can't play it relatively comfortably your frustration level will be ridiculous!

[JeffD]

I'm not sure whose thesaurus says "different" and "better" are synonyms but I assure you they are not.

Well I didn't want to shave the ice that thin. By absolute standards no two instruments are ever the same.

The accurate way to say what I was getting at: The difference between an A mandolin and an F mandolin are going to be the same or smaller than the difference between any two A mandolins. There is not a way to attribute a difference to the existance of a scroll and points.

Also, to the extent that any mandolin can be made to sound like another, (which is arguable anyway) an A style can be built to sound like any given F, and an F can be built to sound like any given A, in other words the luthier can create the required sound with or without a scroll. This is not true, for example, with the difference between F holes and round holes, which have a comparitively huge effect on the sound.

That is at least what I have always understood. If there is a sound difference accurately attributed to the existance of a scroll and points it is news to me.

[JeffD]

The scroll itself is decorative, no effect on sound, but that little extra bit of free top carved to a different profile makes the difference.


Many people prefer the more balanced tone of an A model, especially if they don't spend all their time chopping.

I know what you are saying, but it surprises me.

[fatt-dad]

I'd just like to add, if you are buying a SAGA mandolin, there is a likelihood that their best sounding mandolin will be one of their f-models. Not to take anything away from their A's, but they run their f's into the higher range and some of them sound just great! If I was getting a company discount, I'd likely go for the top of the line f-model. I'm sure if you have a trained ear in the violin you will hear the difference. You will always have resale in your favor also.

I love the a-model mandolin, but the best mandolins by SAGA that I've played have always been their F's.

Just another perspective.

f-d

[TomTyrrell]

Dave Cohen posted these images on this thread. They show exactly what I'm talking about. A models are almost exactly symmetrical, F models aren't even close.

[cooper4205]

I thought he was comparing oval-holes and f-holes, not A-styles and F-styles? wouldn't an A-style with f-holes and and F-style with f-holes (and the same bracing) be a better comparison?.

The main difference between oval hole mandolins and f-hole mandolins is that they radiate sound differently. F'rinstance, the second or "longitudinal sloshing" air mode does not radiate at all in f-hole mandolins, but produces monopole radiation (a spherical spatial pattern) in oval hole mandolins.

[Andy Morton]

About the link on your website---it might be helpful to have a very evident link to "home" or something very obvious to explain the basics and overview about your business. That might help.

Andy

[earthsave]

Dave Cohen posted these images on this thread. They show exactly what I'm talking about. A models are almost exactly symmetrical, F models aren't even close.

You got videos of those with a cool psychedelic color scheme?

BTW, Nice pics that illustrate the difference in vibration.

[techfiddle]

About the link on your website---it might be helpful to have a very evident link to "home" or something very obvious to explain the basics and overview about your business. That might help.

Andy

Thank you to all of you for your input and responses; I appreciate it so much! I changed all the prices on the page this morning.

There is a "Contact" link at both the top and the bottom of the pages; this has the information about the business and how to contact me.

I was astonished to find, late last night, that the block of links I put on my "Store" page did not work! So I changed those, too.

[JeffD]

Dave Cohen posted these images on this thread. They show exactly what I'm talking about. A models are almost exactly symmetrical, F models aren't even close.

Thats F holes compared to oval holes. The sound hole makes a huge difference.

I would be interested in seeing an oval hole F style compared to an oval hole A, or an F hole F style compared to an F hole A style.

[TomTyrrell]

Jeff, did you even bother looking at the pictures? I'm not talking about the holes. Ignore the holes. Look at the PLATES. Look at the waveforms near the scroll compared to the opposite side of the top. That is the difference everyone refuses to accept.

[Rick Schmidlin]

Great thread and great diolog from all.I really enjoyed this mornings read with all the imput.

[JeffD]

Look at the PLATES. Look at the waveforms near the scroll compared to the opposite side of the top. That is the difference everyone refuses to accept.

I see that. But with so much else being different, I cannot be sure sure if:

1 - that is an anomoly that only happens with the interaction of the F hole and a scroll

2 - if it makes a significant hearable difference


Tom I am certainly not qualified to speak authoritatively about this. Luthiers, accoustic engineers, and you who have done lots of back and forth comparisons feel free to jump in.

All I am saying is that until your postings, I never heard anyone claim a sound difference attributable to the scroll.

[Jkf_Alone]

tom you are forgetting that the tone bars in f style mandolins and in A style oval holes are completely different. on F styles they run beside the f holes and on oval holes (depending on type) there is one brace behind the bridge. those bars do transfer vibration.

Connie, speaking as a business person, there are a few problems with your site and your sales of mandolins.

- most sites offer a free basic setup ( if you dont, you are "setting yourself up" ) for headaches
- most of the better sites dont simply repeat the SAGA line (look at themandolinstore.com )
- if you cant make a profit on something that you are happy with WHY SELL IT? you should just specialize in what you know.

[Dave Cohen]

F-style mandolins do not in general have mode shapes substantially different than A-style mandolins with the same sound hole and bracing configuration. #The kind of asymmetry that Tom noticed in the '24 F5 is unremarkable. #Please note that there is a small amount of asymmetry seen in the sideways rocking motion of the 1920 A3 as well. #Individual mandolins will show some variations, but they all have all of the basic mode shapes. #More important are the differences in modal frequencies. #Those vary quite a bit; more so in mandolins than in guitars, f'rinstance. #I will have much more on that in my chapter in an upcoming book on the physics of stringed instruments being edited by Tom Rossing.

http://www.Cohenmando.com