"f" versus "a" models?

[techfiddle]

Dear list:

I'm starting a music program in the Fall, and I'm going to be studying mandolin, among other things. I'm a violin/viola/fiddle player and was going to buy this case, along with a mando -- which is the Bobelock double violin/mandolin case:

http://beststudentviolins.com/cases.html#doublevlman

But the case apparently only fits with an "F" model mandolin. Now I'm dealer with SAGA and I sell mandolins occasionally, but really don't know anything about them.

I was going to buy a mandolin and then have it adjusted here locally, which of course is recommended. (I'm sure no one can blame me for taking advantage of my wholesale prices). But the mandolins I've always looked at are the "A" models -- they just look more like mandolins to me.

I'm sure I'll learn a great deal more next year when I start the program at school but in the meantime, what's the difference between the "A" and "F" models (aside from the way they look)? I have both now, here:

http://beststudentviolins.com/guitars.html#mandolins

Thanks in advance,
See you in the South Plains!
Connie

[Andrew DeMarco]

This question comes up a lot here. What's the difference between A and F?

Many people would simply answer "The fancy strap hanger..."

[TomTyrrell]

Staying totally within the parameters of the OP here.

All of the A style mandolins on your web page with a neck/body joint at the 15th fret will fit in a standard F5 case. IOW, they will fit in the Bobelock double violin/mandolin case you show on your web site.

If you want a few days' reading just search the site. Lots of discussions about As vs Fs.

[JEStanek]

If the neck lengths are the same (the A and F shown join the body at the 15th fret) the differences between the two are the body points and scroll. I hope the attached helps you see that the A will fit in the Fs shaped case.

Jamie

[techfiddle]

Is the shape of the back an issue? Even if the face (top) of the instruments are identical.

[TomTyrrell]

Is the shape of the back an issue? #Even if the face (top) of the instruments are identical.

No. The Kentucky A models are all arched back (not bowl back) mandolins.

[sunburst]

If the neck lengths are the same (the A and F shown join the body at the 15th fret) the differences between the two are the body points and scroll...

...and at least $1000 (usually, for similar quality).

[TomTyrrell]

What does price have to do with whether a mandolin will fit in a case or not?

In this instance the price of the mandolin doesn't matter that much since the "buyer" is a dealer and the choices are very limited.

[JEStanek]

I think John was stating the only very noticeable difference between and A and an F of similar quality is $1000 (or in this case about $300). Connie did want to know if there were differences other than looks. If the necks are both longer (15 frets to body) and the tonal differences will be negligible. So in this case the only real difference is cost. Either will fit in the double case.

Jamie

[techfiddle]

I did do a search on here and didn't see any headers which indicated that the discussion was specifically about the differences between the "A" and "F" models. But I do want to know what the differences are, if any, and not just cosmetically.

My guess is that, in terms of the back shape, the string set-up, and the pedagogy of learning the instrument, they are the same. Just the "F" models look superficially more like a guitar and are, in general, more expensive??

But then of course, why is the "F" model more expensive, if it is, and also, if there's no difference in sound, as a rule? And no particular model used for some particular type of music?

If the differences are only cosmetic -- aside from the probability that the more expensive the instrument is, the better the sound may be (?) -- and then, too, if they all fit in the double case, then never mind.

Seems like there's really no big, huge difference, then?

[sunburst]

What does price have to do with whether a mandolin will fit in a case or not?

First, as Jamie said, either will fit the case, second, you can replace the case for much less than the $1000-or-more price difference between a quality A and a quality F mandolin.

Connie, F style mandolins are more expensive than comparable quality A style mandolins because of the huge amount of extra labor involved in carving, binding, sanding, finishing etc. the points and particularly the scroll. The extra labor doesn't stop there, however, because the presence of the scroll complicates the neck set, the fret work, and other tasks involved in the construction of a mandolin.
There may be a trend toward higher quality in F mandolins, but, not in the lower price ranges. In fact, there is often a decline in overall quality of Fs because of the extra labor needed and the skill level of those in the factories making the low price instruments.

A style carved mandolins behave physically essentially the same as F style mandolins, and they sound essentially the same (assuming similar construction, sound holes, and such).

[man dough nollij]

But then of course, why is the "F" model more expensive, if it is, and also, if there's no difference in sound, as a rule? #And no particular model used for some particular type of music? #

Just a noob here, but I think I have a handle on this. Bluegrass is a very tradition-oriented genre, and the F style is associated with bluegrass. There's no reason you can't play bluegrass with an A style, it's just not as "mainstream". Plus, folks just get "scroll envy".

As to the cost, there is a ton of work that goes into making that scroll. If you peruse the Builders forum, you can see pictures of F styles under construction-- there is an incredible about of carving, trimming, sanding, etc involved in the scroll area, and the binding is extremely time consuming. You just delete all that detail and work completely, and you've got an A style, hence much cheaper.

[Jeff Hildreth]

The famed Gilchrist told that his A models and F models sound the same.. he further said there is no reason to buy and F based on tone and playability

When I asked why he built only F's now

Quick reply I can make more money

I have owned one F ... I much prefer A

[JeffD]

As to the cost, there is a ton of work that goes into making that scroll. If you peruse the Builders forum, you can see pictures of F styles under construction-- there is an incredible about of carving, trimming, sanding, etc involved in the scroll area, and the binding is extremely time consuming. You just delete all that detail and work completely, and you've got an A style, hence much cheaper.

While you are correct, I think you have the cart before the horse.

There is a lot of #extra work that goes into an F style. It is justified because the market allows one to sell an equivalent F style for a higher price.

The higher price is because they are more popular than A style mandolins, more folks just want 'em. This is most especially true in bluegrass.

There is no accoustic reason for desiring an F. But that scroll is SO DARN COOL, that folks are just willing to pay more to have one.

I of course am immune to scroll envy... #

NOT!

All my desires will be satisfied when I get a vintage Gibson F4.

[JEStanek]

Connie, If you look at some higher end F style mandolins you'll see how much more carving goes into the scroll (especially the volute or ridge). Also, having so many more curves on the body and the headstock makes binding (the stuff on the outer edge of the instrument usually white or black and white) takes a lot more time.

If you were, for example to choose an A or an F built by, John Hamlett (for example), if the woods used were the same, and he graduated the plates similarly, you would have very close to identical sounding instruments, only the one with the scrolly and pointy bits would cost you more. IMO, either instrument from John would be desirable.

There certainly is plenty of debate on the subtle nuances of differences in sound between and F and an A due to the slightly larger airchamber (part of the body scroll is hollow) and effects of headstock mass etc. But given the variation of instruments between builds I can't recall anyone proving there are general significant differences in tone/sound quality between As and Fs of similar quality by the same builder.

Wait till you start asking about different finishes, cast vs stamped tailpieces, 1, 2, or 2+ piece backs, oval vs f soundholes and flatwound vs phosphor bronze or monel strings. It's more like a 55 gallon barrel of worms (and when we start speculating - it's almost like a barrel of monkeys!). Welcome to the wonderful (obsessive compulsive ) world of mandolins.

Jamie

[TomTyrrell]

But given the variation of instruments between builds I can't recall anyone proving there are general significant differences in tone/sound quality between As and Fs of similar quality by the same builder.

Nobody has ever proven sameness in tone/sound quality between As and Fs of similar quality by the same builder either.

Anecdotal evidence is all we ever get. That and nonsensical discussions of air chamber volume.

[techfiddle]

Wait till you start asking about different finishes, cast vs stamped tailpieces, 1, 2, or 2+ piece backs, oval vs f soundholes and flatwound vs phosphor bronze or monel strings. It's more like a 55 gallon barrel of worms (and when we start speculating - it's almost like a barrel of monkeys!). Welcome to the wonderful (obsessive compulsive ) world of mandolins.

I'll try to restrain myself. However, I do wonder, if I get one of those cheapies from SAGA, to start, would it be smart to (1) have it professionally adjusted; and (2) have a better set of strings put on it?

This is the process with the violins I (used to) get from them, though I learned better and started using Howard Core as my distributor, and all their violins are set up in their shop.

Oh: is there a distributor (wholesaler) who makes (and sets up better) better mandolins? That would be good to know. I've sold _one_ (1) of the SAGA's in a year and a half I've had this version of my business online, and that only because I had it priced down wrong and the lady was so sweet, and it was for her daughter, I gave it to her anyway, and made, like, $4.00 Which was fine.

But I have to wonder why I haven't sold any. The page gets tons of hits.


Thanks,
Connie

[sunburst]

A good set up is important for playability, especially for students, and few mandolins arrive from factories with anything like a good set up.

I think you'll find that the variability in mandolin strings is nothing like in violin strings. The differences are mostly confined to gauge and the material of the windings of the wound strings. There are also coated strings and some flat wound strings, but all unwound mandolin strings and the cores of all wound mandolins strings are steel (with exceptions for specialty situations and perhaps come classical situations).

[JeffD]

But given the variation of instruments between builds I can't recall anyone proving there are general significant differences in tone/sound quality between As and Fs of similar quality by the same builder.

Nobody has ever proven sameness in tone/sound quality between As and Fs of similar quality by the same builder either.

Anecdotal evidence is all we ever get. That and nonsensical discussions of air chamber volume.

Agreed. Sameness doesn't have to be proven. All that needs to be proven is that just about everything else has a bigger effect - or another way to say it, any differences in tone between an A and an "equivalent" F are likely to be attributable to other much more significant effects, type of wood, type of strings, type of playing, age of instrument, dryness of insrument, age of strings, and a whole host of other things.


And, if I am not mistaken, the issue with the air chamber volume is that if the only difference is the scroll, the air chamber volume is the same. No?

[JEStanek]

Connie,
I feel with imported instruments (probably with darn near any stringed instrument) local shop set-up is key to my purchase. If I were to buy a Kentucky (or Morgan Monroe, Or Michael Kelley) on e-bay from a shop I had not heard of or that drop shipped I would expect to need to spend another $40-70 on a good set up and fresh strings.

Buying from established dealers or dealers that have detailed what their set-up procedure before shipping is preferred. Ideally, the person in the shop should know about mandolins or at the very least be a good guitar tech and understand about floating bridges.

On mandos, especially less expensive ones for beginners, a good playing, properly set up instrument is your key to repeat customers. If a person spends $200-400 on a beginner instrument that hurts when they play it, or won't tune because of bridge or nut issues they won't come back to buy a more expensive instrument from you later.

A well set up $200 mandolin will sound and play better than a $2000 with a poor set up, IMO. Especially, to ears new to the instrument.

Jamie

[MandoBen]

...But I have to wonder why I haven't sold any. #The page gets tons of hits...

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but this page, http://beststudentviolins.com/guitars.html#mandolins does not appear to be linked to your homepage? I had to do a google search of "best student violins mandolins" to find it.

[gregjones]

Wait till you start asking about different finishes, cast vs stamped tailpieces, 1, 2, or 2+ piece backs, oval vs f soundholes and flatwound vs phosphor bronze or monel strings. #It's more like a 55 gallon barrel of worms (and when we start speculating - it's almost like a barrel of monkeys!). #Welcome to the wonderful (obsessive compulsive ) world of mandolins.

And..........then you have to get a pick!!!!!

Thick, thin, rounded or pointed made of this or that.

Get one mando with six different picks and you have half a dozen different instruments---all in one case.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Connie,
if you would want a student grade mandolin - and beyond - for a fair price, get a well worn Strad-O-Lin from the 30ies. They fetch as much as 500,- USD but they sound like the vintage mandolin that they are and way better than modern student grade mandolins, and sometimes better than higher quality custom made instruments.

They are f-holed A-style mandolins. The bowels of the instrument apparently make up the beast. Since the 20ies when Lloyd Loar had his tenure with the Gibson firm mandolins with f-holes are made with so called tone bars, which are parallel braces that are responsible for the sound quality. Modern makers also build with an x-bracing pattern, like steel string guitar makers do. X-braces are also responsible for the sound character of the instrument. Oval hole instruments were generally made with a traverse brace to give a certain sound quality. This is what the Stad-O-Lin has though it has F-holes. The different bracing patterns and the question of f-hole vs. oval hole makes up the sound difference in the instrument.

As you see, it is more what´s in the instrument than the appearance that makes up the sound. Mandolins also differ in size, the Strad-O-Lin is smaller than its Gibson brothers and sisters. Among them the size differs too as far as I am informed, depending wether the instrument is an oval- or f-hole instrument.

The most reasonable advice that I have read on this thread is, go out and try any mando if possible back to back with others and determine the sound that you like as well as the appearance before you decide on any instrument.

[techfiddle]

...But I have to wonder why I haven't sold any. The page gets tons of hits...

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but this page, http://beststudentviolins.com/guitars.html#mandolins does not appear to be linked to your homepage? I had to do a google search of "best student violins mandolins" to find it.

It's TOTALLY linked to my homepage. Scroll to the top; there are links across the top (click on the "Store" icon), or use the pull down menu on the top left.

[Bill Snyder]

Connie,
Kentucky brand mandolins get good reviews by several of the posters on the Mandolin Cafe as student and perhaps intermediate instruments. If you can get them at wholesale then it makes sense to me for you to get one.

To answer your question as to why you don't sell any mandolins it is your prices. They are higher than what other online suppliers are selling theirs for.