Bluegrass on other instruments

[mishima]

While at local pickin parlor lady came up and asked if she could sit in and play her clarinet? The answer was a polite no. She proceded to enlighten those around that wind instruments are essential to blugrass music, again a polite no.
I know if it has notes it can be played. Ok, as I am limited in my history of bluegrass is this lady correct or is that hickory smoke I smell.

Thanks


Mike

[AlanN]

Bill Monroe wrote a number called Trombolin.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Now that would be a sight to see, a 'TROMBOLIN' . Obviously a hybrid of a Trombone & a Mandolin.
Now, would that be an 8 string Trombone or a Mandolin with valves,& would you blow the thing,strum it or both at the same time. Maybe you could 'blow' one tune while accompanying yourself by 'strumming' the (!) accompaniment - the idea intrigues me greatly - an amalgamation of brass & wood (a bit like a symphony orchestra actually ?). Maybe there could be a whole 'family' of 'TROMBOLINI' - the bind moggles !!!!!!,
Saska

[Joel Spaulding]

Allen Hopkins should probably weigh in on this - he might own one!

[Barry Platnick]

I believe the answer is yes.
check out this link:

http://klezmermountainboys.com/index.php?page=home[/url]

Her name is Margot Leverett

[JEStanek]

Andy Statman's playing on the Wayfaring Stranger's CD Shifting Sands of Time on mando and clarinet are exquisite. Perhaps not pure BG, but a nice addition sonically. Where's Mandopete?

Jamie

[KirkwoodCowboy]

Wasn't there a clarinet solo on Mike Compton & David Griers' " Bye Bye Blues " from the climbing the walls CD ?

[Bruce Evans]

Wind instruments are NOT essential to blugrass music, but I would have asked her to play on at least one tune to see what she would do. If she was good, I'd ask her to play another. If she "stunk the place up," I'd suggest a tune in B.

[mandocrucian]

Bluegrass is a closed system. Add different instruments and it'll change the sound and will have consequently stepped outside the bounds of "bluegrass". I mean, there is still debate over electric bass and dobro is OK!!!

Whether a particular instrument can sound good in a particular form of music depends on the player and how much that player understands about the vocabulary of the particular style. But even if the clarinetist can play Vassar Clements solos that really feel like Vassar Clements solos, it still isn't, according to the "laws", "bluegrass".

There can be all sorts of hybrids which have BG elements - newgrass, dawg, new acoustic, klezgrass, jazzgrass, celtograss, chorograss - and they may sound great (or not), but they are something else.

Incidentally, what's really interesting (and enlightening) about hybrids is which direction the hybrid process arises. For example, "Bluegrassers jazzing up tunes" and "jazzers grassing up tunes" are not going to collide with the same sound/approach, like the transcontinental railroad connecting up.

NH

[billkilpatrick]

on bobdunshire's bagpipe site, i found the following:

"a very interesting piece of information was that an "old-time," "hill-billy" band called "the weems string band" had planned to use a bagpipe during a recording session in 1928 but for some reason - probably technical, i image - didn't manage it. nashville is certainly poorer for the omission."

i also know that in some parts of texas (thanks to german immigation) they use a whole range of "oom-pah-pah" type brass instruments when playing country and western music.

those "polite no-ers" who probably broke that poor clarinet player's heart aught to be ashamed of themselves. "pure" anything is a myth - especially in regards to people and their art forms.

does "pure aryan culture" ring an alarm bell?

[Red Henry]

I've used mandola and mandocello on bluegrass, on stage and also on recordings, without going outside the boundaries of the music. A great deal depends, not on which instrument you're playing, but on how you play it!

Red

[FOXFIRE]

You can be positively sure that Bill Monroe would have positively answered the question about a clarinet in bluegrass with the following answer: "That ain't no part of nothin' ".

[mandroid]

This was not a invitation only recording session , but a 'open' jam, was it ?

one guy in town here couldn't drop the Atonal-Amelodic thing that goes over with the art gallery music niche ,
for a bit of 1, 5, bass notes , and a melody based solo, on the contrabass sax, so he was banned from the [not even BG policed] bar jam, but flute player was OK , with the regulars: Piano, brush played snare drum, and I got to sit in with my 4 string E-dola.

On the Coast, so 'What do you do with the drunken Sailor' gets a room singalong on the chorus.

[Steve Ostrander]

Let's see: Bill said "You don't need no drums, you don't need no hot electric guitar, you don't need no Dobro." Nothing about clarinet in there...

[mandopete]

Mmmmm.

[JeffD]

While at local pickin parlor lady came up and asked if she could sit in and play her clarinet?

The following is my own personal opinion, and I respect those who don't agree with me.

I think in a public jam, if someone asks politely, I think we should let them join in, regardless of the instrument. The only excptions I would make are electric instruments - and in that case the jam should have been announced as an accoustic jam so everyone should know. I think we have a responsibility of some kind to "participatory music" that is more important than keeping our own particular musical orthodoxy. I don't think the jammers have a responsibility to change genre, from bluegrass for example to a wind ensemble in this case, but there is some responsibility to make the polite person feel welcome.

I think folks coming up to you with inappropriate instruments is the risk you take when you have an open jam in a public place.

Usually the results are not great and the clash and lack of fit becomes apparent to the new person. The new person will 9/10 catch on and either gracefully thank you for the opportunity and leave, or just not come back next time. That as been my experience.

I can't defend myself any more than to say that my heart goes out to the person. She was told of this group that meets regularly and plays music, and she aniticipates joining in all week, with high hopes of finding musical friends, and she screws up her courage and brings her clarinet and comes to the jam, an then screws up her corage another notch and actually asks to sit in.

I have a hard time saying no.

There are folks in my own weekly jam who are not happy with my patience for newbies and those who want to participate but are not yet familiar with the music's structure and traditions.

And I have sympathy for those of us who don't have a local jam, and who take precious time after a hard day of work to drive an hour or more to a jam they have been looking forward to all week, perhaps working out some licks to try out, only to be confronted with a drum and trumpet solo.


Its only music folks, and I for one will never be "discovered" at a jam session, and bluegrass or what ever genre you like is not destroyed or hurt by the occational clarinet.


And... who knows. There is a marvelous contra-dance band that incorporates an oboe. Oh my. The oboe makes an eerie and marvelously ancient sounding contribution to an Irish jam, or a northern old timey jam.

[lespaul_79]

If it's not band practice, anybody should be able to sit in. No matter what instrument. I go to a jam that has a killer accordian player. It adds a great flavor.

Hopefully the new-comer will sit out for a second to see if they can hang with the group and what their skill level is. Otherwise, I tend to believe the Golden Rule even applies to Bluegrass.

And to the person that actually stands up to someone and says, "No, you're not welcome to pick", or blocks the newbie from taking a break... that's just so lame and weak.

BTW, in case you cant tell, I cant stand snobs.

[mandocrucian]

"That ain't no part of nothin' ".

One of the truly inane and low-class quotes in music history. (imo) Someone should reprogram one of those Billy Bob talking bass wall plaques to include that beaut (and in a Bill voice, too).

Once again, board genre segregation saves us all from hearing that one repeated over and over and over, ad naseum. You know, I'd like to see how long that quote would be allowed if it was being applied to religious, ehtical and political beliefs and preferences.

[cooper4205]

She proceded to enlighten those around that wind instruments are essential to blugrass music...

Where did she get that from?

[mandolirius]

While at local pickin parlor lady came up and asked if she could sit in and play her clarinet? The answer was a polite no. She proceded to enlighten those around that wind instruments are essential to blugrass music... Mike

Essential? I have a hard time believing that. What could that argument possibly be based on?

[mandolirius]

And, out of curiousity, what is a pickin parlor? Are there actual places called that?

[Bill Snyder]

Well, there are several references to Bill Monroe having a female accordian player in his band for a while. Does that make accordians bluegrass instruments?

[Jim Rowland]

As the result of reading the negative reactions on this thread,I am rethinking my plan to introduce my electric kazoo at a nearby jam this weekend. I guess I'll stick to my spoons and throat singing for the time being.
Jim

[JeffD]

In summary, that polite no does more damage to the image of bluegrass and participatory accoustic music in general than an occational clarinet in the jam would have done.

[allenhopkins]

Allen Hopkins should probably weigh in on this - he might own one!

Sorry -- I don't. I have a Rolmonica, which is a "player piano" harmonica with paper music rolls, but "Trombolin" is past my competence.

On the subject of the thread, I am generally in favor of letting everybody play. True, clarinet's not a "standard" instrument in bluegrass, old time or Celtic, but it's very common in string/wind hybrid bands such as klezmer. Mariachi groups combine brass and strings; western swing bands had sax as well as fiddle.

The interesting sub-text is the personality of the aspiring clarinetist. Sounds like she lectured the group on why her instrument was "essential" in bluegrass, which betrays a lack of knowledge combined with an off-putting assertiveness. Perhaps some of the jam members who were undecided became negative at that point.

Old-time string bands were much more eclectic; they often combined all instruments available into one hodge-podge ensemble. Henry Ford's Old-Time Dance Orchestra (he didn't play in it, just sponsored it -- Ford combined corrosive nativism and anti-Semitism with a love for what he considered our "proper" musical traditions) featured hammered dulcimer, piano and tuba. Harmonium or "parlor organ" was heard in several groups, and of course piano was common, as were harmonica and kazoo. Jug bands often had strings and winds combined.

Bluegrass hasn't been quite as "instrumentally pure" as some might think. Flatt & Scruggs' '60's recordings often had Charlie McCoy's harmonica added. Ray Edenton played tiple (yes, tiple!) on one of my all-time favorite 'grass LP's, the Osborne Brothers and Red Allen's Country Pickin' and Hillside Singin'. Many of Jim & Jesse's country-influenced recordings (Berry Pickin' In the Country e.g., all Chuck Berry tunes) had electric guitar and drums. And as stated above, Bill Monroe had Wilene "Sally Ann" Forrester as an accordionist for awhile; he also recorded with electric guitar, piano, organ, drums and xylophone at different times at his producers' suggestion.

And of course some interesting hybrid recordings. Pick up the two Area Code 615 albums, reissued on CD now I believe, to hear some fascinating combinations of rock, country and bluegrass instrumentation. Or the old Tennessee Firebird album by vibraphonist Gary Burton, with Sonny Osborne on banjo on several cuts.

Long-winded enough. Jams should be open, welcoming places -- but people who want to join in with non-standard instruments should be a bit more diffident and not lecture the group on why their participation is "essential." And if anyone has a Trombolin for sale, well, I'll at least look at it...