Bluegrass on other instruments

[LateBloomer]

Not exactly a Tromboline but jefflester had this photo in the mandolin oddities thread

[LateBloomer]

Not sure how to play it, but I think this might be a very rare Jamie Wiens Clairolin

[Dano Reible]

In my opinion (remember you asked) anyone that shows up to a "Open Jam" and asks to play should be aloud to play until they prove the inability to do so. Enven players of lesser ability have a place as where else will they get any playing time with a live band.
Now the style of music is dictated by the jam and a headbanger wanting to play his style at a BG jam is not proper but if he wants to play with the theme of the night why not?
At our Blues Jam we get all kinds of players and swing from old style blues to country in a second and then hit a little Janis Joplin if some girl shows up and wants to belt it out.
I have showen up at BG jams and played Harmonica many times and even gave it a flavor of blues while I was at it and never upset the apple cart, in fact have had many requests to come sit in with various bands at there BG gigs.
I know there are purist out there but good music, great music, heck just music period in a live setting is so hard to come by in my area that passing someone up because they don't fit the "style" of the night would be a shame if not rude.

Again, my opinion and not ment to stir up any agressive dialog.

Thanks

[John Flynn]

"Bill said 'You don't need no drums, you don't need no hot electric guitar, you don't need no Dobro.'"

Interesting. I have three different recordings of Bill Monroe each with one of the following in his band: Electric guitar, accordian and piano.

I also have to say that there is a flute player from a local symphony who has sat in on some of our bluegrass/old-time jams, playing tin whistle. Some people give her the hairy eyeball until she starts to play. She is incredibly good and blends perfectly. She can also pick up a tune she has never heard, flawlessly, after hearing it one time through. That shuts up the "police" pretty quickly!

[wannabethile]

tin whistle is one of my favorite instrumental additions to bluegrass!! i just wish that i could play it, haha

[Klaus Wutscher]

You can be positively sure that Bill Monroe would have positively answered the question about a clarinet in bluegrass with the following answer: "That ain't no part of nothin' ".

Can we? It amazes me how often people make broad and very firm assumption about Bill Monroe and what he was thinking based on the NPON quote, which becomes an annoying discussion-killer btw.

Bill Monroe was an inovator, and he was blessed with an ability to hear things that other peole couldn´t, and he was not talking much about his musical vision. So how could we know? He didn´t approve of the dobro, but simply because F&S were featuring the instrument. After all, he might have liked GOOD clarinet playing, assuming that the player would have been able to play in a way that fit in with his vision. Merely blowing through the changes would not have helped much, of course... Unless maybe she was really cute, of course

Personally, if I attended a Jam and someone else was kicked out for dogmatic reasons without having played a note, I would be packing early, no matter how perfect my own instrument and playing would grant approval by the Bluegrass Police....

[FOXFIRE]

Can we? It amazes me how often people make broad and very firm assumption about Bill Monroe and what he was thinking based on the NPON quote, which becomes an annoying discussion-killer btw.

Bill Monroe was an inovator, and he was blessed with an ability to hear things that other peole couldn´t, and he was not talking much about his musical vision. So how could we know? He didn´t approve of the dobro, but simply because F&S were featuring the instrument. After all, he might have liked GOOD clarinet playing, assuming that the player would have been able to play in a way that fit in with his vision. Merely blowing through the changes would not have helped much, of course... Unless maybe she was really cute, of course ....

The answer to your first question is, yes we can. I know you are aware he actually said, "Ain't No Part O' Nothin'" on numerous occasions, referring to any music that did not fit in with his idea of bluegrass. This was a part of his musical vision. Bluegrass records have been named after this phrase of Bill Monroes.
Check out this web page: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...m?bandID=19351

" "Ain't No Part O' Nothin'" was a phrase used by the late Father of Bluegrass Music, Mr. Bill Monroe, to describe music that wasn't bluegrass".

This is a FACT of history and not an opinion or broad assumption.

Anyway, the original question from the very first post was about whether wind instruments were essential to bluegrass and its history.

As a matter of FACT the answer is, NO; Wind instrument are not essential to bluegrass and it's history.

On the other hand that should make no difference in a jam; Letting the clarinet player in the jam would be the friendly thing to do.

[Keith Erickson]

I guess if I was asked not to play in an "open jam", I would pack my stuff and avoid those individuals like the plague.

It sounds like there are plenty of good folks here that would have invited her to a jam, regardless if it was bluegrass or not.

Which brings me to my next point....

...there are more good people in the world than bad people

[Ken Froman]

I was at a jam a month ago where a woman actually brought a trumpet. She blasted everybody out of the room. Even though she was a good musician wasn,t any use for anyone else to play at the same time. Fortunately she hasnt been back ! :-)

[bassthumper]

thankyou RED HENRY for saying it's not what one plays but how....i agree...at present MS makes it difficult for me to enjoy the stringy psaltries sitting around the house...not that i don't try to make music it's just a bit rough sounding now...but my harmonica on a neck brace does a right fair fiddle impersonation and one night while choking i almost got it to do a mando-chop...i'm working on that technique..while i would never try to intrude on a working band i would hope that until such time as this disease allows me to join the jam on strings that in a campfire or backporch jam setting i would not encounter any PURISTS (translated BIGOT) who would deny me the pleasure of joining the group...and if so i'll wait around the corner for the whistles bells horns and what have you to show up and throw down some beautiful noise with them...in closing i was in a jam a couple years ago and when the dobro, d-28 and bluegrass fiddle showed up two clawhammer banjoists got rude and shouted them down and made them leave..that was sad....but nobody raised an eye to the little woman makin music on a bottle opener and pop bottle sittin next to my bass...and that little girl could jam

[Samjessin]

If you consider jug, dixieland jazz, or country music part of bluegrass music's history than wind instruments have a huge place in bluegrass music.

anyhow, it ain't no part of nothing, people can and will do what they want and i welcome it. I think I am over my traditional thing, I mean times have changed!

[Wesley]

The purity of bluegrass may have been maintained - but the opportunity to play with a good musician may have been missed. We'll never know. I hope she was turned down gently.

[pigpen]

My first thought when I start hearing of people getting kicked out for inappropriate instruments is "I should be next". (Yeah, yeah yeah...that's for a therapist, not the Cafe, right?) The very nice folks at the bg jam I attend gamely welcome me to play despite my beginner status. The great ukele player who occasionally shows up fits in great. Honestly, it would be much better for the music for me to leave, despite my "appropriate" instrument, then him.

One more voice for the choir.

[Stephen Lind]

never try anything different
you might learn or grow or something

[mandroid]

" Never try anything different ... you might learn, or grow or something "

Good reverse Psychology , I endorse the implied message..



... a community music making session should not be a circular firing squad ...

[mandopete]

The purity of bluegrass may have been maintained - but the opportunity to play with a good musician may have been missed. We'll never know. I hope she was turned down gently.

Best comment in this entire thread!

[Mattg]

Pete Wernick has a band that includes the vibes and the clarinet. Mostly a jazz band but when they rip a bluegrass tune it sounds great. they have that bluegrass sensibility that I am still searching for.

[Klaus Wutscher]

" "Ain't No Part O' Nothin'" was a phrase used by the late Father of Bluegrass Music, Mr. Bill Monroe, to describe music that wasn't bluegrass".

This is a FACT of history and not an opinion or broad assumption.

Wind instrument are not essential to bluegrass and it's history.


I never argued that Bill Monroe used the phrase to describe a style of playing or instruments as such that he didn´t see appropriate for his band or his idea of BG. That has been well documented.

I´m arguing that WE DON´T KNOW how he would have reacted if he heard a great clarinet, flute, vibes, harmonica, chello ... player. Claiming that is a broad assumption.

Bill Monroe is no longer with us. We cannot second guess how he would feel about anything just because we THINK we know him.

If Bill Monroe had been so close minded as many BG players think he was (based on some of the stories that circulate), how could he have become an inovator in the first place? He would have told that kid Earl some or another that he should clean up his act and play some NICE old time banjo and not waste his time with that facy picking.


Of course, wind instruments are not essential to bluegrass history.Nobody claimed that. But history is only one aspect of music - there is the also the present and the future.

Early music performers are renetlessly discussing how the repertoire should be performed (period instruments, ornamentation, amount of improvisation etc.). All these arguments are based on assumptions. I can get a chuckle out of these discussions, but lately I see BG go down the same path.

Trouble is, once there is an established repertoire, instrumentation and performance practice, you know that a style has died and has become a museum piece.

If that is what the BG mainstream wants that´s fine but I´m not following.

[mando bandage]

Couple of years ago, my 12 year old son ran home six blocks to get his bassoon (I know, I know) and ran back to a gig our string band was playing. We're not bluegrass (but we do have a mandolin and a banjo). He sat in playing the bass line on Billy Joe Shaver's Fast Train to Georgia. Whatever it was, it was part of something I was glad to be a part of.

R

PS Nobody quit the band either.

[jim_n_virginia]

While at local pickin parlor lady came up and asked if she could sit in and play her clarinet? The answer was a polite no.

Was it a bluegrass jam or an open jam you are not clear here?

If it is a Bluegrass jam then you don't show up at one with a clarinet and expect to play.

If it is an open jam then anything goes as long as it fits in with what they are playing.

If I went to a Bluegrass jam and there were people playing wind instruments (or a bodhran etc.) I would be outta there in a second. Might seem harsh to some but you have to draw a line somewhere because it would just be a matter of time before someone shows up with their portable Casio keyboard with a battery pack.

It seems like some of you don't know that THAT'S the way a particular genre of music like Bluegrass (or Old Time or whatever) stays alive. These smaller genre's of music don't get the television and radio airplay like more mainstream pop, rap, rock etc. so the way it is passed down is from person to person generally and I said GENERALLY.

Nothing wrong with mixing different music together jazz/bluegrass, celtic/rock etc.

But when someone goes to a genre specific jam and wants to change it it is usually through their ignorance or rudeness and thats when someone (usually the facilitator but sometimes the group as a whole) has to speak up.

Now I personally have a friend who was given the cold shoulder at a weekly BG parking lot picking because he played the harmonica. I didn't think that was very nice. But instead of going away with a grudge he bought an upright bass and now he fits in. I admire him for that.

[Klaus Wutscher]

Quote:

[I]It seems like some of you don't know that THAT'S the way a particular genre of music like Bluegrass (or Old Time or whatever) stays alive. These smaller genre's of music don't get the television and radio airplay like more mainstream pop, rap, rock etc. so the way it is passed down is from person to person generally and I said GENERALLY.


But when someone goes to a genre specific jam and wants to change it it is usually through their ignorance or rudeness and thats when someone (usually the facilitator but sometimes the group as a whole) has to speak up.

Quote end



Well, yes and no. Of course, if everybody would bring bassons and pipe organs to Bluegrass Jams, we would have an issue. I once was part of an ITM session that had a didgeridoo player stopping by, whose instrument was tuned to a (somewhat flat) Eb. He didn´t last long and wasn´t really missed.

What bothers me is when a style is so firmly and narrowingly defined by players and the fan base that there is no room for further innovation. Thats when a style dies. Nothing wrong with playing historic music, that´s perfectly legitimate. But are we starting to kid ourself if we think of Bluegrass as a living, envolving genre?

The lady maight have been a great, capable or so so player. Her contribution might have been annoying, uplifting, funny or even embarassing. I´m not saying wind instruments should be in BG no matter what. But once people start to draw a line based on a restrictive point of view whicht they CLAIM to be authorized by an iconic musician who was an inovator in his time, things may start to become stale and predictable.

[JeffD]

Was it a bluegrass jam or an open jam you are not clear here?

If it is a Bluegrass jam then you don't show up at one with a clarinet and expect to play.

If it is an open jam then anything goes as long as it fits in with what they are playing.

...

But when someone goes to a genre specific jam and wants to change it it is usually through their ignorance or rudeness and thats when someone (usually the facilitator but sometimes the group as a whole) has to speak up.

How would anyone know? I mean besides a BGer, who would in all liklihood know whats appropriate and what isn't. There are accoustic musicians who have been playing for years who would innocently come upon a BG jam and not know if it was BG or OT, genre specific or open.

I would say that when ever you feel that someone coming to a jam with an odd instrument "wants to change it", your mistaken. Every time. Nobody wants to change it. It is always 99.99999999826% due to ignorance of the tradition, and not rudeness.

What may come across as rudeness is perhaps what a person has to do to screw up the courage to ask to play with you.

Further, I think the clarinet woman was not trying to argue about woodwinds being essential or anything like that. She was trying to recover some dignity after being rejected. There is no such thing as a gentle rejection - it always chaffes.

[CES]

QUOTE: Couple of years ago, my 12 year old son ran home six blocks to get his bassoon (I know, I know) and ran back to a gig our string band was playing. We're not bluegrass (but we do have a mandolin and a banjo). He sat in playing the bass line on Billy Joe Shaver's Fast Train to Georgia. Whatever it was, it was part of something I was glad to be a part of.

Great story, and I'm sure he was unbelievably thrilled at the opportunity...keep him on that thing...I knew at least 3 other kids who got college scholarships on bassoon or obo, and neither were good enough to sit in with anybody (there just aren't that many out there comparatively, though I'm sure someone at the Bassoon Cafe is feeling a great disturbance in the force as I type)...plus, he can always get into strings later if he chooses. I played sax early on (and may again at some point), and now have 3 guitars, 2 mandos, and a banjo...

[GRW3]

When she asserted that that wind instruments were fundamental to Bluegrass I would have asked her to elaborate. Wonder if she confused, or didn't have a grasp of the difference, Bluegrass with Dixieland? ("You know, that Southern Red Neck music", she would later tell her friends.) Wind instruments are most assuredly a key part of the latter.

Now out here in the fringes of Bluegrass we're a little less dogmatic about acceptable instruments because keeping the jam going is the most important thing. We routinely have mountain dulcimer players and we let them use their amps (modestly, I have no quelm in telling them to turn it down), we have a guy who plays about six instruments a session including harmonica, and we've recently added a fill in electric bass (though an acoustic guitar type not a hard body) when our regular bass guy is out of town. We might get a ticket from the Bluegrass police but that would just go with our ticket for playing Hank Williams or Garry Nunn songs along with Bill Monroe et al.

Now about the clarinet, for our group I don't think I would have an issue. If we let a harmonica in why not a clarinet, since they work off the same vibrating reed priniciple. I would expect the clarinet to add a sort of concertina type sound to the group which could remind one of the celtic or cajun strains of folk music. The downside of the clarinet, or any wind instrument for that matter, is that they are very linear played, sustain driven instruments with no real rythmic capability. Like fiddles they would specialize in breaks and fills but they could not provide any rythmic device like a fiddle chop. The best they could do is like they do in jazz bands and provide sustained chord tones as a base for the music.

Now this being said for a clarinetist to be comfortable with such a jam would require exceptional ability. Number one issue being that, unless they were the rare owner of a C Clarinet, they could not read our music directly. They would have to play by ear or be able to transpose on the fly. Maybe she could do these things but I would suppose that someone of that skill level would be in demand for jazz bands and more knowledgeble of music in general.

BTW, I would draw the line at brass instruments, even my beloved trombone. They're just too loud.

[allenhopkins]

1] Haven't I seen Grisman working with a sax player? Of course it's not bluegrass, but there are combinations of strings and winds that can be musically interesting.
2] I think when a genre of music becomes calcified and unable to accept growth, change or experimentation, it's on the path to extinction. Doesn't mean everyone has to like everything that anyone may try. I can remember reading Bluegrass Unlimited in the '70's and '80's and watching the "BG purists" (I was tempted to use the moniker of a defunct German political movement, but didn't) rail against the Bluegrass Alliance, New Grass Revival, JD Crowe's New South, and other "newgrass" or country-influenced bands. At the time they were called "no part of nothin'," now they're loved and respected. I'll bet the devotees of Mainer's Mountaineers and the Possum Hunters thought Monroe's Blue Grass Boys were pretty far out, with Wise's Texas long-bow fiddling and that kid Scruggs bopping all over the banjo!

All this is a long way from the question of whether to let a clarinet player into a stringed-instrument bluegrass-or-closely related jam. But there really is a line between respecting and preserving a vital and growing musical tradition, and acting as a watchdog or censor to challenge the credentials of anything a bit out of the ordinary.