How do I identify public domain music?

[Scott Tichenor]

A band I'm in has an upcoming gig where we've had to sign a contract that all of the material we play is either original or public domain. I should know the answer to where to locate and identify songs of this nature via a web search, but I don't.

Anyone know the definitive place to search? Thanks in advance for an answer.

[mrbook]

I think I got this site one the cafe a couple years ago:

http://www.pdinfo.com/list.htm

It is the best (and really the only) such site I have seen, but I question a couple entries I have seen listed. Many folk groups in the 60s and later copyrighted their arrangements of traditional songs, but I think you can safely argue that the songs are really public domain. You should be safe using this list.

Bill

[Scott Tichenor]

I guess maybe I'd be better off looking for a searchable database that would allow me to type in a song title to see if it was copyrighted, instead of searching for only non-copyright. So, lets say (example) I wanted to see who wrote/owned some bluegrass or folk song...

[GRW3]

I don't think that will be much help. You can copyright your own version of a traditional tune. I think you need something that catalogs tunes and songs that predate the renewable copyright. Another source might be something like Carl Sandburg's American Songbag or the Smithsonian archives.

[mclaugh]

Scott,

Try the copyright office <www.copyright.gov> or the BMI site <www.BMI.com>; they will give a hit if the tune is copyrighted. The equivalent ASCAP site does not seem to provide as much useful information.

I am always skeptical of copyright registrations in the name of latter-day rock&rollers on tunes that were originally recorded before they were born, but use your own judgement.

Off topic 1: The rule used to be that the venue was responsible for any performance fees (which were usually not collected). Has that clause fallen out of contracts these days or are you dealing with someone who is new to the business and doesn't know any better? Or are they being harrassed by a fee-collecting outfit?

[foldedpath]

As a very rough guide, you can try typing song names into the bmi.com web site and see what comes up. If there's a clear songwriter copyright in force, you'll see only one or a small group of listings, under the same songwriter name. For example, relatively recent tunes like Ashokan Farewell will show up like this.

An ancient folk tune like "Red Haired Boy" brings up many more listings, all credited to different "Songwriter/Composers." That suggests copyrighted arrangements and not a legit credit for a single author holding current copyright.

Probably not an ironclad method for clearing tunes, but it's at least one way to cross-check against something like that pdinfo.com site. There was a recent thread about this on thesession.org, lamenting the way that copyrighting arrangements can mess up public performance rights of very old tunes, when agencies like BMI get involved:

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18894

[JeffD]

Ascap / bmi ?

[farmerjones]

Harry Fox has a very searchable database of what is available for liscence as well.

[Don Grieser]

A heads up: All those old Carter Family songs had the copyrights renewed by Peer Publishing, I believe. I know I had to get a mechanical license for one when I did the CoMando CD even though the person who submitted it swore it was PD and I thought it would be too. Found out otherwise by searching for it on Harry Fox.

[MikeEdgerton]

Ascap / bmi ?

ASCAP

BMI

[Bertram Henze]

...There was a recent thread about this on thesession.org, lamenting the way that copyrighting arrangements can mess up public performance rights of very old tunes, when agencies like BMI get involved:

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18894

I remember an old inner sleeve in a record I had, which said "home recording kills music". Apparently, they have found a whole new way to kill music out there. Take care that the mockingbird in your backyard is not singing any copyrighted stuff...

What I find very interesting in that thesession.org discussion are the ideas to invent new names for all the tunes - one of these days I'll write a generator for that. The next step would be to register those names as under a public license to prevent anyone from claiming property, a bit like the GNU public license - if there is such a registry somewhere.

Bertram

[ApK]

Wow.. this thread only started yesterday and it's already the number 2 Google hit for "copyrighting arrangements."

The number one hit is this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=E89...sult#PPA136,M1

I read the section on copyrighting arrangements and it was disturbing.

You know, I'm generally on the side of the of the IP owners (and the law) and generally feel attacks on PROs are unjustified, since if the members didn't want their enforcement, they would not be members.

But the idea of copyrighting arrangements of PD tunes is really rubbing me the wrong way.

The intent, as I gather from the above cite, was to offer protection for things that showed some significant original and creative input. An extreme example mentioned was "a full orchestral arrangement of a folk song."
But I get the sense from the fears expressed on the forums that copyrights are being registered on the basis of really simple performance improvisations, like embellishments and dynamics, or very minor lyrical changes to PD tunes. That seem to be the concern raised, though I've not seen actual examples given.
It seems, from what I read, that those 'copyrighted arrangements' would NOT be upheld if challenged.

If any of you HAVE copyrighted an arragement of a PD work, I'd interested in hearing about what makes it worthy of a copyright.

And if any of you perform a PD song and get a copyrighted arrangement complaint, and you believe you are not performing someone's genuinely original arrangement, I hope you fight it.

ApK

[allenhopkins]

Harry Fox Agency link.

[TonyP]

I think the note should have read, "suits kill music" Bertram. If you should get around to doing like you say, it would be a great thing. But I can only imagine the retaliation by the powers that be.

To me, the ultimate disservice that's done here is to the original writer of the song. Not that they are losing out on some $$$, but that they are being further buried beneath red tape. I always say what I know about the song we're going to do, and give credit to who wrote it. And most of the bands I've seen that are not pro, and some that are, like Utah Phillips, would give credit to the writer too. That has expanded my knowledge of, and made me search out these people and buy their cd's. I think only a suit would think you are killing music by recording it yourself. Most of us could never afford to get into a studio, much less deal with the cut a label would take. And from friends with copyrighted songs, they receive very little for this "protection". The whole thing is a mess, with no clear answers.

I am going to save the links supplied for further investigation.

When we did our cd, we went through a place in Nashville to license all the songs. Some of it was impossible. Like Dim Lights, Thick Smoke is divided amongst several people and one couldn't be found. And one of the songs by Ronnie Bowman, nobody seemed to know anything about.

I would be curious too if this is the wave of the future, having to sign a contract, just so the venue doesn't have to pay their ASCAP/BMI dues? I know that wasn't the object of this thread, but inquiring minds have questions.

[GTison]

the Harry Fox agency, I would think would be the place to look.


These places are just trying to cover their butt from BMI , ASCAP, and such. I'm not really sure it works. So if you play in this club and do a request "play rocky top" frinstance are you in trouble with the club? Do you have to pay the royalties for the venue?

The argument about this goes on and on. So, if you get permission from the author to perform a song, is that considered permissable?

I think that's why Don Reno and Frank Wakefield and others play tunes and songs and call them something else. So that they have an original title thereby dodging royalty issues.

just call everything Scotts Rag, Scotts blues, Tichners troubles, etc. problem solved.

[HogTime]

What I find very interesting in that thesession.org discussion are the ideas to invent new names for all the tunes - one of these days I'll write a generator for that. The next step would be to register those names as under a public license to prevent anyone from claiming property, a bit like the GNU public license - if there is such a registry somewhere.

Bertram

Since you can't copyright a title, I don't see how this would do any good. There are many modern day songs out there with the same title.

[John Flynn]

Here is my problem with the databases like BMI. Just for fun, I typed in "Old Joe Clark" in the BMI database. This tune is clearly the public domain. The first printed versions go back to 1918 and the tune clearly goes back farther. BMI has 71 listings for the title. A random sample indicates to me that less than half of them say anything about public domain and even then it is "shared public domain." So here is my interpretation, and the one I'm sure BMI would like us to believe: Any tune that has ever been recorded by a BMI artist is protected by BMI and therefore not in the public domain, unless you can say your arrangement is absolutely unique. Could anyone ever play "Old Joe Clark" in a way that is true to the tune and say it does not mirror one of those 71 arrangements?

The rule I have heard (I don't know to what extent this is valid) is that if you can show the tune was written before 1929, your good to go with it. I have gotten that from owners of venues I've played who were concerned with the "Copyright Police." I'm not sure of the origin of it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against copyrights at all and I think artists need to get paid for their work. But I think even listing Old Joe Clark as anything but public domain is the height of arrogance.

Oh, and there are 141 listing for "Happy Birthday," so your families are all in violation too. I'm tellin'...

[Wendy Anthony]

I was doing some research about public domain music, internet music transmissions & copyright issues early last year & ended up with quite a few interesting links ... only some links are about public domain music, others are relevant only to USA, or to Canada, UK or International ... these links, including those already suggested by previous posters, are on my Music Research webpage ...

Keepin' tuned ...
Wendy

[MikeEdgerton]

Wendy, that is a wonderful resource, thank you for creating it and listing the link. This page is what I have been looking for.

[GRW3]

I was looking for this link last night. It's on my laptop not the home PC

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/

You should write down your own chord sheets and lyrics for reference. Don't carry somebody else's copyrighted arrangement.

[TomTyrrell]

The latest in copyright law sets 1923 as the date. Anything published before then is in the public domain.

Arrangements of public domain songs and tunes can indeed be copyrighted. BUT you don't get copyright to the entire song or tune, only to your original arrangement of that song or tune. If you don't copyright your arrangement of a PD song or tune that you put on your new CD you won't get paid when it is played on the radio. In order to win a court action against someone for infringing upon your copyright you have to prove exactly which parts of your arrangement are original and subject to copyright protection.

The simplest rules for performing PD songs and tunes:
1. If you know the original author and date announce that before you play the tune. If you don't know the author announce it as a "traditional" tune.
2. Don't EVER say "This is an old traditional tune I learned off of Billy Bob Smith's record" or anything like that. The only way anybody is going to know you are playing a copyrighted arrangement is for you to TELL them you are playing a copyrighted arrangement.
3. If anyone says your version sounds a lot like someone's copyrighted version just say "Well, it is the same traditional tune. I guess we both like it."


BTW, the Copyright details will generally have something like:
Basis of Claim: New Matter: "compilation of preexisting words & music, performance & sound recording."

[mandroid]

Publisher's renewal of copyright is part of the Game, "Happy Birthday" keeps getting renewed,
so Its under copyright, still.

[BauerHaus]

I was doing some research about public domain music, internet music transmissions & copyright issues early last year & ended up with quite a few interesting links ... only some links are about public domain music, others are relevant only to USA, or to Canada, UK or International ... these links, including those already suggested by previous posters, are on my Music Research webpage ...

Keepin' tuned ...
Wendy

Wendy....what a wonderful website you have there. The links are a great tool for many people. Thank you.

Steve

[TomTyrrell]

"Happy Birthday" is still under copyright but it is doubtful the copyright holders would go to court now. Recent research has shown that the music was not original and neither are the words making the copyright invalid and potentially exposing the copyright holder to legal action.

[John Flynn]

Tom: You have presented some good info here and I agree with you, but your premise is all based on what would or would not actually happen in court. The well-documented tactic of outfits like BMI has been to have a few high-profile lawsuits that have put some Mom and Pop venues out of business and then send thier "agents" around to other venues to intimidate the owners based on those high-profile suits. To use the example, the copyright holders of "Happy Birthday" don't have to do anything. BMI sends goons to the venue and threatens based on the copyright of one of the recordings of "Happy Birthday," not the original. Often, the venue can't take the chance so they pay the "protection money."