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Thread: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

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    Registered User minnedolin's Avatar
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    Default My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    I've been away from the board for awhile, school,work, and pickin are of my top priorities--but I've been checking in the classifieds every so often and couldn't help but notice some Gibson A models from the teens being sold for a price that just didn't make sense to me. These amazing mandolins seemed to be in near mint condition, considering they are ninety years old....How is it possible that these mandolins are selling for $1,000??? If tuition and the cost of living weren't such a factor for me, and I didn't already have a good mandolin (Eastman 815 F-style, very nice) there wouldn't a doubt in my mind that I would buy one of these beauts. Anyways, are the demands for an F-style mandolin so great that these old, sweetly aged mandolins from days of yore so cheap? I've been thinking about these mandolins for a very, very long time---just can't get it out of my mind. I guess its this M.A.S that everyone was rappin' about, but man is it supposed to hurt this much? I'm freaking out...man
    Ooh, he card reads good.

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    Registered User g-mac's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    How is it possible that these mandolins are selling for $1,000???
    I think it's largely because there are so many of them. The mandolin was at the peak of its popularity in the teens, and Gibson was cranking them out. That, coupled with the fact that they're quite durable, means that there are a lot of them around.

    That having been said, they are beautiful, and a Gibson 'A' in mint condition from the teens for $1K is a great deal. (It's good to play these in advance if you can, though, since the playability varies quite a bit.)

  3. #3

    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    Being a professional cheapskate, I can't accept that logic. I have a real hard time purchasing anything - vintage mandolin, auto, antiques - for maybe twice what they sold for new. That's just me. As you might guess I have very few of these things. In my book, a mandolin that sold for $150 in the 1920s is worth at most $400 to me today. I would guess that close to 100% of people on this board would disagree. Obviously the market proves that I'm in a very small minority. Wouldn't it be weird to see a 1924 Gibson on Ebay selling for $200 like some of the ornate vintage bowlbacks that sell there at that price?

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    Brentrup Evangelist Larry S Sherman's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    I think it's the economy.

    I'm on the lookout for a nice Gibson A and an F4 and I've watched some nice ones go at great prices because I just don't know where the economy is headed.

    I have a nice tenor b#$%jo for sale on another site and haven't had a nibble.

    If things start looking up I might pounce, but for now I'm just watching these nice mandos go by.

    Larry

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    Registered User Fred Keller's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    I agree that it does have something to do with the fact that there are still a lot of them out there. I also think that it has something to do with the fact that not all old "A's" sound alike. I'm not badmouthing them--I own one from '29--but just pointing out that I've played a number of them that don't have a consistently good tone. Too often the treble courses are awful tinny to my ears.

    Just my $.02
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    Compound inflation rates from 1918 go 2008 have been about 1400%, from the "Loar Years", say 22, about 1,200%. So purely inflation adjusted, a $100 teens mandolin should be about 1400, a $150 mandolin about $2,100 - like a new Collings MT. And obviously the new prices across models ranged widely from their low end to the A4.

    Then you have depreciation from wear and appreciation because of rarity/collectibility, which in combination obviously are the dominant factors rather than general inflation (and why the A's are so much less than Loars). But roughly you can say they have held their value and that is more than one can say for most other instruments.

    Are they such great mandolins that they should be priced higher than new instruments? Not really, they are nice instrument and have some cachet that comes with age. I love my F2s (1917 and 1923), but not because of incredible tone or playability. The As that have the reputation for unusually good sound (e.g. snakeheads) or good shape A4 are not selling for $1000 either.
    Last edited by Roland Sturm; Oct-13-2008 at 5:09pm.

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    Registered User JimRichter's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    Be careful not to generalize about Gibson A models. There's a big difference between an AJr and an A4 and the prices will vary accordingly.

  8. #8

    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    interesting rant ...

    i'm with payit forward - though i doubt i could even approximate the current value of a 1920's mandolin - a $1000 bucks is a thousand bucks!

    would the instrument - the thing itself - be worth even that if the word "gibson" was nowhere to be seen on it?

    ... how did the pricing of mandolins get so out of hand?

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    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    What Jim, and others said. Plus those Gibson A's from the teens all have oval holes, a smaller market from the F5 style most people want to play. Add in no truss rod, some with issues, the going rate drops even more.

    FWIW, I'm not seeing many minty teens Gibsons at $1,000. More like $1500-3000 (A1-A4 or Snakes!). Ones that have seam issues, cracks or aren't all original are lower and, project Gibsons are the only ones I see under $1K.

    Final question, your Eastman 815 will fetch anywhere from $950-1200 (max) on the used market. Would you sell it to buy a $1K vintage Gibson? You already answered it. As gently as I can put this, and it isn't a criticism, it can't be a rant if you're not willing to do anything about it....

    Jamie
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    Well, Bill, it isn't just the word "Gibson", it's the whole mando thing. Gibson dominated the market, and that made them "The Sound". So lots of folks want them, so that drives the price. (Of course, that's just on this side of the Big Pond. Over there, the bowlback rules, but Gibsons are still expensive because of general scarcity of supply in Europe, to say nothing of VAT).

    If you really want to complain, remember that this board is responsible for creating a lot of interest in mandolins, as well as a clearinghouse for info and a marketplace. So feel free to apportion to Scott a fair amount of blame.

    A lot of instruments that were of little interest twenty years ago are attracting attention because of increased info, as well as by Gibsons (for example) being priced so high. Martin flatbacks, Larson Bros (Stahl, Maurer, etc), Lyon & Healy, even Strad-O-Lin have all received a boost thru the above factors.

    Personally, I too am a cheapskate, but with a difference. I can't abide the depreciation hit of a new instrument (or automobile) so I bought vintage. And watched the asking price rise, and rise. Glad I got in when I did, even though I've never been able to afford a Loar; they were always about 5x what I could afford; now of course the ratio has gotten worse. I remember being offered a Loar by Mandolin Bros a looong time ago, for 6500. Tried to convince my parents that it would be a good investment. And I was right, but they saw right thru my motivations. Too bad.

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    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    To answer Bill (I was writing whilst he posted), the pricing of mandolins isn't out of hand. There are good mandolins at every price point. The vintage ones increase in price because they can't be made anymore (look at the cost of a L&H Style A in good shape ($3-5K!). The L&H Style B and Cs are still more than $1K and don't have a "G", or any other letter, on their headstock.

    Jamie
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    Registered User minnedolin's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    Final question, your Eastman 815 will fetch anywhere from $950-1200 (max) on the used market. Would you sell it to buy a $1K vintage Gibson? You already answered it. As gently as I can put this, and it isn't a criticism, it can't be a rant if you're not willing to do anything about it....

    Jamie[/QUOTE]

    But I.... what? Ok, you win this time. I was actually hoping someone would offer me their old A model mandolin but instead I get pragmatic folks putting things into perspective. I see how it is. J/K thanks guys its good to be back on board.
    Ooh, he card reads good.

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    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    Minnedolin, No worries, man. I would like to get a nice Vintage Gibson oval holed mandolin for myself sometime... If i can get it for closer to 1K than 2K so much the better! Welcome, back. FWIW, I'm not ready to part with any of my heard either to get that 1K Gibson oval either.

    Jamie
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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    I'm with Roland here. It doesn't appear that mandolins have gotten expensive over time-but I'm not that old. Small changes may appear relative to the timeframe being measured but using this inflation index:

    http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

    (I know they vary from one to the other)

    My 1918 Gibson A which I got a few years back for $900 (okay it was a good deal) translates into $66 in reverse inflation. I suppose someone could turn up a catalog to check the actual selling price. Lyon and Healy were selling their bowlbacks around that time period for a range from $12.50 and up. (~$170 in current value-a pretty nice deal for a starter mandolin-probably twice what you'd pay for that Washburn on ebay.) I think the market has expanded to the low and high side, but I still troll the quality vintage market as it still seems like the $$ per quality ratio--as the original poster suggested--is still quite high. I, too, drooled over those teens As for years myself and I don't think I've completely scratched my itch yet. A Washburn bowl in good condition might remain the best value per $$ item on the mandolin market. Regal/Washburn/L+H flatbacks probably just after that. Let's all keep that a bit of a secret.

    Mick

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    Registered User Ken Olmstead's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    Well...her comes the curious accountant! If a mandolin sold in 1928 for $150 that would be 80 years of inflation at an average of 4%. My calculations say that the same mandolin would cost $3,660 today. I find that interesting since if Gibson made an oval hole that would be pretty close to the sales price. If I discount for used say 60% (little much for a Gibson maybe) you get $2,196 which is what I generally see these old Gibsons (a3s and a4s.) JRs are lower and A4s of course at the may exceed that. Anyway, just for fun!
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    my two cents: I am not a good mando player, but I know what I like to hear. I've been to a local music shop - Buffalo Brothers - several times and sampled the instruments there. I won't name other brands for fear of starting a fight, but even with my limited ear I can hear a sound coming out of the 1900- 1920 Gibson A's, selling for usually around $1500, that I just don't hear from other insturments, most of which are quite a bit more expensive. It really isn't the name on the label, at least IMHO. There is just a an almost guitar-like woody sound that I think is great.

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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    But it wasn't an average inflation of 4%, see numbers more on target in an earlier post.

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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    According to the Inflation Calculator, a mandolin costing $150 in 1920 would cost $1,540 in 2007.

    Old Gibson A's aren't for everyone. The pre-truss-rod necks tend to be thick; the scale's short; tops tend to sink, tuners aren't always the best, etc. etc. The good ones have a unique sound that few modern instruments duplicate; they can ring like bells, with those "tubby" lower overtones that are not as often heard from long-scale, F-hole models.

    Extending the discussion, some of my favorite under-priced "sleepers" are A-40's and A-50's from the years around WWII. You can sometimes find a surprising punch and bluegrass "bark" from them. Again, quality varies, but I've seen them for under $1K fairly recently, and they have slimmer necks which may appeal to today's players.
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    Allen, I totally agree with you about the A-40's and A-50's. I've heard a lot of them and even played a few. Everyone was a fine playing and sounding mandolin

    Ken
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    some of my favorite under-priced "sleepers" are A-40's and A-50's from the years around WWII. You can sometimes find a surprising punch and bluegrass "bark" from them. Again, quality varies, but I've seen them for under $1K fairly recently, and they have slimmer necks which may appeal to today's players.
    Still have my first 'vintage' mandolin, an A-40 from the late 50's-early 60's, which had a white top when I bought it in 1978 from Mandolin Brothers. Also still have the accompanying letter written by Stan, where he states '...finding a mandolin with a bark for under $500 is a boon to the bluegrass musician."

    It has a dandy neck.

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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    Anyone who thinks the price of vintage Gibson A's are inflated should take a look at what electric guitars from the 50's and 60's are selling for. Mandolin Brothers has a '57 gold top Les Paul with P90s at a cash discount price of $75,000. It probably sold new for around $250.
    Last edited by Steve L; Oct-14-2008 at 7:19am. Reason: wrong information
    Steve

  22. #22
    Ursus Mandolinus Fretbear's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Old Gibson A's aren't for everyone. The pre-truss-rod necks tend to be thick; the scale's short; tops tend to sink, tuners aren't always the best, etc. etc.
    I agree. I once had a '17 A-0 in excellent condition that I traded away and have never missed it. They are beautiful and collectable instruments and are now approaching antique status, but as a mandolin to play, they would be far from my first choice.
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  23. #23

    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    One of the things that can drive the price of vintage instruments is the cost of a new one of the same type. If Gibson were to decide to start making A models in Nashville I'm not sure they could keep the sell price below $1,000.

  24. #24
    Registered User chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    I don't particularly care for the older ones. Neck to thick, short fretboard and don't stay in tune as well as the newer ones. I had a 1918 A4 that looked great but just didn't sound all that great. Maybe I'm spoiled by having what I have in the way of F5's and a newer A model. I do like my 22 F4 though. There does seem to be alot around so maybe that's reflective of the pricing. I dont' think it's the economy as if you check the sales of Gilchrists, Duffs, Gibsons, etc they seem to be selling at the higher prices even through these difficult financial times.

  25. #25
    Registered User theBlood's Avatar
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    Default Re: My rant about the Gibson "A" models

    I have a 1918 A-1 and a 1921 F-4, both purchased about a year ago with money taken out of the stock market (not a bad move in retrospect!). So I've been watching the values with interest.

    IMO, the biggest factor driving the value of A models is the prodigious inventory in this country. Gibson was making something like 8000 of these a year, if I'm not mistaken. Almost every day one of these gets listed on ebay and quite often in the classifieds here as well. Its hard to get a great price when another guy is also selling what you got. If you're looking for a certain model Collings, by comparison, you're going to be looking for a while which keeps prices propped up to some degree.

    Having said that, my 2 oval holes are incredible instruments, and I'm amazed at the actual value I got for my money in each case. I mean, the A-1 is a varnished instrument which, alone, adds something like $1000 to instruments. The playability of both is great and the sound is full and sweet with that old wood tone. Everyone should get one in my opinion...

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