Bill Monroe's guitar

[testore]

Anyone have a picture of Bills guitar? I have a client who says that he grew up with Bill's granddaughter and she gave him Bill's Blueridge model Gibson guitar. Can it be true? I'm a bit skeptical.

[allenhopkins]

"Bill's guitar" -- meaning the one that he played on Muleskinner Blues and often took into the studio -- was a '40's vintage Martin D-28 "herringbone." Neil Rosenberg writes in Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys: An Illustrated Discography (p.24):
Monroe's battered Martin D-28 guitar was used on most recording sessions from the late forties until 1965 when it was stolen from James Monroe's car in Nashville.

(Though I have heard suspicion cast on whether it was actually stolen, or perhaps sold surreptitiously...)

Monroe had many many instruments given to him, and I believe he gave some of them to friends and other musicians. He may well have owned a Gibson Blue Ridge, and passed it on to a family member. Like the Ibanez mandolins discussed in another thread, these weren't identified with him, but the D-28 surely was; he had his guitarists record with it because he liked its sound.

[GRW3]

If you take a look at one of the pictures of the early Bluegrass Boys in "Can't You Hear Me Calling?" the guitar player is playing a Gibson Dreadnaught. As I recall the book indicates that Monroe would occassionaly provide good instruments to his newest accolytes. Being of Scottish extraction, I doubt he would 'give' them the instrument so maybe this was one of his band instruments. Besides the Gibson I've seen a Youtube vid where guitar player is playing a Guild. While Martin fanatics would like you to believe they are the only suitable guitar for Bluegrass, that rule apparently was not established by WSM himself.

[earthsave]

I vaguely remember reading that he bought Cleo Davis a Gibson when he signed up as the first incarnation of the Blue Grass Boys.

[Gary Hedrick]

by the way that Gibson guitar player in the "Can't You Hear me Callin' " is more than just a Bluegrass Boy.....that's Charlie Monroe playing that Gibson guitar

[Gary Hedrick]

I will look around my music area but I know I have something with a picture of Bill from the 30's playing a J 45 I think.....but it truly is one of the slope shoulder models....I'm sure a Tom Isenhour will have something showing him playing a Gibson guitar

[GRW3]

by the way that Gibson guitar player in the "Can't You Hear me Callin' " is more than just a Bluegrass Boy.....that's Charlie Monroe playing that Gibson guitar

Yes there's a picture of Bill and Charlie but I'm talking about a picture of the Blue Grass Boys. Since they were not formed until Bill and Charlie split it wouldn't be Charlie.

[MikeEdgerton]

...While Martin fanatics would like you to believe they are the only suitable guitar for Bluegrass, that rule apparently was not established by WSM himself.

I'm sure WSM didn't establish the Gibson banjo as the standard but it became one. I'm sure the same thing happened with the Martins. When you figure that just about every Bluegrass band has someone playing a Martin guitar or a copy thereof, a Gibson banjo or a copy thereof, and a Gibson mandolin or a copy thereof you kind of have to assume those are standards. How many bluegrass bands have people playing a Embergher mandolin, a Dyer Harp guitar and a Fairbanks White Laydie banjo? Probably none, but it would be interesting to see. I'll also note that WSM didn't start out playing an F5. Standards in Bluegrass evolved over time and obviously and weren't set automatically at the start.

[allenhopkins]

Well, I'm far from a "Martin fanatic," and there are many other excellent guitars, both vintage and new, that are quite suitable for bluegrass.

The point I tried to make is that Bill Monroe had a D-28 "herringbone" model that he had his guitarists play in the studio for two decades, until it disappeared. He undoubtedly owned a variety of other instruments, and may well have owned a Gibson Blue Ridge and given it to a relative. But if you ask about "Bill Monroe's guitar," the D-28 is what comes to mind.

[Gary Hedrick]

I see the picture you mean George.....or at least I think you mean the one with Cleo Davis, the first replacement of Charlie.......I suppose that is a Gibson....little hard for me to tell

[f5loar]

There is an album cover of Monroe in front of a mic in a studio in color holding a late 30's Blonde Top J-35. Don't mean it was his though.
If Monroe had a Gibson BlueRidge model (first year was 1968) I doubt he bought it so maybe someone gave it to him. I've not seen photos of him with one.

[Fretbear]

The Gibson company has never shined sonically (in my opinion) in the field of the larger-bodied guitar. Charlie Monroe was getting the first, and up until then, the best bluegrass sound on his medium-sized Gibson, but for the most part, the bigger the Gibsons became, the futher away they got from what was needed in a bluegrass guitar. I believe the only guitar that was ever bigger than the Gibson J-200 jumbo was a one-off called the "Big Boy" by the Larson Brothers that looked like someone had strung-up a kitchen table. I fully understand why WSM would have made the decision to carry his own Martin guitar. First, out of hundreds of guitars of any brand, that particular one was probably superior for delivering what he wanted to hear, and that was something which could otherwise not be counted on, no matter how good his guitar at any given time happened to be. The second was it made switching out his guitar players so easy and efficacious; they didn't even need to own a good instrument, as indeed, Cleo Davis did not. It would have also exerted a subtle pressure upon the inductee that it was his boss who actually owned his guitar, and by tranference, a little bit of him as well. Anyone who would say there was no possiblity of that has not studied their Monrology. The third was it would be at the ready for any recording that needed to be done. With space as tight as it was in and on his early stretch "flex" limo, as described by Jimmy Martin, where they slept sitting upright with their Stetsons on to keep them from being crushed, it would be interesting to know if any given guitarist's own instrument was even allowed along for the ride.

[allenhopkins]

I believe the only guitar that was ever bigger than the Gibson J-200 jumbo was a one-off called the "Big Boy" by the Larson Brothers that looked like someone had strung-up a kitchen table.

Not quite; check this one out (scroll down for the six-string model).

[Darryl Wolfe]

I fully agree with the concept of "Bills Guitar" being the Martin D-28 played by many of his guitarists. Although Allen may be correct stating '40's, I believe the guitar to be a '30's model. Myself and others have had many discussions on this subject and wonder if the community can establish any facts. It is said to have disappeared in the later '60's timeframe.

[earthsave]

I vaguely remember reading that he bought Cleo Davis a Gibson when he signed up as the first incarnation of the Blue Grass Boys.

Here's a pic of Cleo with what looks like a Gibson headstock.
http://doodah.net/bgb/bgb39.html

[f5loar]

That would be the one I was talking about Monroe holding in photo in studio.
A late 30's J35 blonde top. Blondes were special order back then. So one would sumize he did own that one and Cleo used it. So if that is so maybe he didn't have the prewar D28 during this time. I think it's a late 30's D28 too and he probably bought it used at the time. Monroe like them used vintage instruments too!

[Bernie Daniel]

Fretbear: The Gibson company has never shined sonically (in my opinion) in the field of the larger-bodied guitar. Charlie Monroe was getting the first, and up until then, the best bluegrass sound on his medium-sized Gibson, but for the most part, the bigger the Gibsons became, the futher away they got from what was needed in a bluegrass guitar.

Scott what about the Advanced Jumbos? Gibson made about 200 or them between 1935 and 1940 and if you can find of those original ones in even mediocre condition today expect to pay more than $30K -- they were just that good. I agee that the J-200, a super country guitar, is not "pungent" enough for BG.

That said you can't say much bad about most Martin guitars they deserve the reputation they have -- I made a huge mistake selling an early '60's D-28 years ago.

[Bernie Daniel]

earthsave: Here's a pic of Cleo with what looks like a Gibson headstock.

Definately a Gibson Jumbo like maybe a J-35 (or early J-45)? Prob. a J-35 because the J-45's were sunbursts weren't they?

And I guess that is Monroe's F-7?

[f5loar]

J45s(sunburst) and J50's(natural tops) are semi post war models that started in late 1942 so with the prewar script and the style pickguard in that photo it is a J35 Natural late 30's. AJ is what Charlie Monroe had in the mid30's. It was a rosewood guitar and are very sought after today by collectors. That would be the mid 30's F7.

[Bernie Daniel]

f5loar:the style pickguard in that photo it is a J35 Natural late 30's. AJ is what Charlie Monroe had in the mid30's. It was a rosewood guitar and are very sought after today by collectors. That would be the mid 30's F7.

Cool -- you answered all the questions -- for some reason I did not see your post or I would not have commented on the pic.

Did not know that Charlie Monroe had an Advanced Jumbo -- awesome guitars.

Even the new re-issues (the ones built in the custom shop not the standard issue) are wonderful guitars for the money.

[Red Henry]

I fully agree with the concept of "Bills Guitar" being the Martin D-28 played by many of his guitarists. Although Allen may be correct stating '40's, I believe the guitar to be a '30's model. Myself and others have had many discussions on this subject and wonder if the community can establish any facts. It is said to have disappeared in the later '60's timeframe.

Right. I believe it's a '30s D-28, judging from the "advanced-position" top brace just visible through the soundhole in one of the photos. I've heard that this was stolen from James's car in the '60s.

Red

[Rroyd]

Maybe Monroe's D28 ended up in the same hands as his other Loar, and they're both stashed away in the same closet.

[Red Henry]

Maybe Monroe's D28 ended up in the same hands as his other Loar, and they're both stashed away in the same closet.

That's definitely a possibility!

Red

[allenhopkins]

Although Allen may be correct stating '40's, I believe the guitar to be a '30's model.

I have no special knowledge or expertise in dating Monroe's D-28. I was going by a picture caption in Neil Rosenberg's Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys; An Illustrated Discography, stating "Bill Monroe, c. 1940, at the WSM microphone with a new Martin D-28 'herringbone' decorated guitar."

I believe this is the same photo to which Red H refers, since one of the X-braces is indeed visible through the soundhole. If this dates the instrument to the '30's, I gladly defer to those who are able to make the identification.

[evanreilly]

I heard that the D-28 was boosted out of the car in Ohio sometime when James William and Peter Rowan were under the influence of being too far out on that limb, or some such. Probably left the car door open!