Picking question - not on pick direction, for a change!

[Barbara Shultz]

My fellow band members and I were practicing yesterday, and we started discussing the different techniques that each of us have, for holding and picking the mandolin / OM / Cittern. I've tried reading up on this, but it's such a basic thing, and when I do find someone discussing it, even in video's, it's hard to understand exactly what they are describing.

We all hold our picks differently. While *I* am open to experimenting and changing the way I hold the pick, they have it pretty much ingrained, so they aren't really interested in changing.... but I'm always striving to improve my playing (since I'm the newbie in the group!)

I realize that there's probably a zillion ways to pick, and who is to say one way is more correct than the other... but I thought I'd see what ya'll have to say on the matter.

One question concerns that angle that the pick has in relation to the pair of strings. I've read / heard, instead of directly perpendicular, point your thumb slightly toward the floor (but I can't picture what that really means!)

So, here are 3 pictures of possible angles (hard to take by yourself!)

Here is what I imagine a perpendicular pick attack would be:



Here is how Scott picks his Cittern, which is the pick tilted pretty much, this is the angle that he attacks the strings on the down stroke, the follow through is DOWN toward the body of the instrument, and the upstroke follow through is away from the instrument, which to ME seems that the upstroke would only hit the lower string, not both strings. However, Scott doesn't hold his pick with his fist closed, he has his 3 fingers out, and has perfected an extremely light grip on his pick, so I can't really TELL on the upstroke, if he's picking one or both strings:



Here is what I imagine when I read that you tilt your thumb slightly, which makes the pick strike the strings more on the edge of the pick, rather than the tip of the pick:



Another question we had is, should you be picking BOTH strings, both on the down stroke and the upstroke, every time? Is there ever a time when you pick the top string on the down stroke, and the lower string on the upstroke? My opinion was that you should be striving to have your pick strike both strings, every time, and that is what the follow through exercises, etc. would work on.

When you tremelo, are you striking both strings each way, or in picking so fast, do you just pick the top string on the down stroke and the bottom string on the upstroke?

One last question.... I've downloaded Jazz Mando's FFcP (LOVE THEM) and Sweeping for Tone (LOVE THEM) exercises. At the bottom of Sweeping for Tone, it says: Allow no clams, fracks, half-fretted notes, gaps, or anything less than beautiful tone.

What is a FRACK?

[Ted Eschliman]

At the bottom of Sweeping for Tone, it says: Allow no clams, fracks, half-fretted notes, gaps, or anything less than beautiful tone.

What is a FRACK?

Sorry, Barbara, it's a term from my trombone playing days when a brass player's lips don't quite hit on the partial, resulting in an inexact pitch. (Think a really bad bugler...) With the mandolin, it would be striking with the pick before the fretting finger is centered between the frets.

Also, I like picture #3, except I don't ball my fingers that much. John Reischman suggests in his clinics that an angled pick gets more of the string sound out the attack of the pick.

[Barbara Shultz]

Ted, thanks for the clarification of FRACK!

I try to emulate pic #3, as far as angle, myself. As far as what those other 3 fingers do.... I have been playing with them closed into a loose fist. However, I noticed that by doing so, I was tending to let my thumb joint point more toward my body, which let the pick flop between my thumb and finger. I noticed that if I would open my hand, with my 3 fingers out, it naturally pulled my thumb toward my finger, and got me a better grip on the pick, without having to grip it tighter. But, it seems that I have ingrained the angle for my thumb joint, so that even with my 3 fingers in a loose fist, my thumb is doing what it's supposed to.

Like I said, Scott plays with those 3 fingers out, and he says it's a relaxed thing, but when I am trying to open my hand, putting those 3 fingers out, since I've been playing with them in a loose relaxed fist shape, I have to consciously think "fingers out!", which creates tension while I'm doing it! Sometimes I look down, and I've got a REALLY strange looking grip... my fingers are out, but semi-curled....looks kinda like a claw hand! But, I'm thinking that I can retrain my fingers to be out, but loose, eventually. I'm experimenting with the different ways to hold those fingers, to see what effect it has on the sound, tone, etc.

Thanks!
Barb

[Bryan T]

Here is what I imagine when I read that you tilt your thumb slightly, which makes the pick strike the strings more on the edge of the pick, rather than the tip of the pick:

I do this, but I angle in the other direction. The pick also rests against the pad of my index finger, not the side. The most annoying thing about this is that if I buy pick that is 'handed' (as in, beveled for a right-hand grip), then I have to get the left-handed version. I've picked the guitar this way for years and find I get the best tone and have the best pick control doing this. I'm evolving my grip slightly for mandolin, as I find I get a better tone by holding the pick looser.

Tuck Andress wrote a great article on picking here: http://www.tuckandpatti.com/pick-finger_tech.html

Bryan

[Barbara Shultz]

Bryan, I read through the article you linked to.... I have such a hard time imagining what the words mean, without pictures to look at!

The grip that you said you used, coming from years of guitar playing... isn't that what is referred to as a 'pencil grip'... where your index finger is straight, rather than curled?

Jeanne, the other mandolin player in our band, came to mando from guitar, and I've noticed that she holds the pick more like you are describing, more in a pencil grip.

The mandolin was my first stringed instrument to play. I've expanded to the OM and the Cittern, and since they are double coursed as well, the picking issue is about the same. I have also started playing the Tenor Banjo, and that's a different animal all together!

My point, though, is that I did not come to mandolin already being a guitar player. From what I've read, the differences in the instruments, single coursed vs double coursed, necessitates different picking techniques, from the way you hold it, the way you pick, and the type of pick you use.

To those of you who play both mando and guitar, do you employ the same technique with both, or do you have different techniques for each instrument?

So far, this thread has lots of lookers.... am looking forward to hearing from many of you!

Barb

[Bryan T]

Bryan, I read through the article you linked to.... I have such a hard time imagining what the words mean, without pictures to look at!

Same here! I've probably read through that article five times over the years.

The grip that you said you used, coming from years of guitar playing... isn't that what is referred to as a 'pencil grip'... where your index finger is straight, rather than curled?

Well, my index finger is less curled, but it certainly isn't straight. I've never heard the phrase 'pencil grip,' but in thinking about it, I do hold my hand in a similar way as when I hold a pencil.

From what I've read, the differences in the instruments, single coursed vs double coursed, necessitates different picking techniques, from the way you hold it, the way you pick, and the type of pick you use.

I do hold it a bit differently (looser) and I do use a different pick. I probably vary the attack angle a bit, as well.

Bryan

[Barbara Shultz]

Bryan, yeah, straight isn't really what your index finger would be, I just mean not curled under. I was picturing your pick resting on the pad of your index finger, rather than the side, and I imagined you'd have to straighten your finger out (not perfectly straight!) to accomplish that! I think a lot of guitar players hold their picks that way, but what do I know, haha!

Barb

[Rick Lindstrom]

Frack- depends on picking direction. If it happens on the downstroke, it's a frick. Fracks are known only to occur on the upstoke.

Rick

[Arto]

Barbara,

your photos are wonderful! People talk so often about "pick angle" and it is left to the listener to understand what is meant - your picture 2, or 3, or both of them at the same time. And you hear people saying you MUST pick "flat on the string" (no 1) or you MUST pick with pick edge (no 3)... The final analysis probably is that you certainly can do both, but the angle affects the tone and picking mechanics, and it is up to you what you like.

There are other people here with vast larger knowledge about classical mandolin playing than me, but my understanding what some famous classical mandolinists, past and present, prefer is as follows: (please correct me if I´m wrong)

The "new German school" like Gertrude Troester: slower notes no 2 (rest stroke, pick ending to rest on the next lower string in downstroke, hitting both strings downstroke and only one string at upstroke); fast passages and tremolo pick perpendicular (no 1), hitting both strings both directions.
(besides, Gertrude instructs to pick leading with pick edge, no 3, but I don´t know if everybody in this "school" does this)

Marilynn Mair: rest stroke (no 2) like above, also in tremolo (difficult for me!), pick flat on the string (NOT 3)

Giuseppe Pettine: rest stroke (2) or pick perpendicular (1), according what kind of sound you want to get. (Sounds most sensible to me!)

PS: If somebody would like to add "what does pick angle mean?" to Mandolin Cafe FAQ, your photos would make wonderful material!

Arto

[Bryon Winger]

I crossed over to mando from guitar. On the guitar I usually use more of a pencil grip. On the mando I've been working on the power grip - hand partially closed with the pick resting against the side of the index finger instead of the pad.

I'm guessing I move the pick angle around depending on the sound I'm going for and how lazy I am at the time.

[billkilpatrick]

Barbara,

your photos are wonderful! People talk so often about "pick angle" and it is left to the listener to understand what is meant - your picture 2, or 3, or both of them at the same time. And you hear people saying you MUST pick "flat on the string" (no 1) or you MUST pick with pick edge (no 3)... The final analysis probably is that you certainly can do both, but the angle affects the tone and picking mechanics, and it is up to you what you like.

There are other people here with vast larger knowledge about classical mandolin playing than me, but my understanding what some famous classical mandolinists, past and present, prefer is as follows: (please correct me if I´m wrong)

The "new German school" like Gertrude Troester: slower notes no 2 (rest stroke, pick ending to rest on the next lower string in downstroke, hitting both strings downstroke and only one string at upstroke); fast passages and tremolo pick perpendicular (no 1), hitting both strings both directions.
(besides, Gertrude instructs to pick leading with pick edge, no 3, but I don´t know if everybody in this "school" does this)

Marilynn Mair: rest stroke (no 2) like above, also in tremolo (difficult for me!), pick flat on the string (NOT 3)

Giuseppe Pettine: rest stroke (2) or pick perpendicular (1), according what kind of sound you want to get. (Sounds most sensible to me!)

PS: If somebody would like to add "what does pick angle mean?" to Mandolin Cafe FAQ, your photos would make wonderful material!

Arto

i agree - the photos worked.

benefits of the "power grip" elude me - my grip looks as if i should be holding a tea-cup - but in following barbara's pictures, i noticed that with no. 2, my pick stays put - it doesn't slip around ... hallajuelah!

very useful posting - thank you barbara.

[gregjones]

I do this, but I angle in the other direction......... The most annoying thing about this is that if I buy pick that is 'handed' (as in, beveled for a right-hand grip), then I have to get the left-handed version.

I do that also. Headstock edge up, bridge side down. It just seems more natural and comfortable than "pointing your thumb at the floor". That feels like my wrist is bent the wrong way.

It gets confusing. I wanted a Blue Chip pick but couldn't find out anything on their website as to which bevel to get. Matthew e-mailed me and said basically that if you hold your pick in your right hand its a right hand bevel........

I had to do a Cafe search on pick bevel to figure out which one to order. I "winged" it and went with a left hand bevel.

When the Blue Chip arrived, sure enough---I'm a righty with a lefty bevel.

[Bryan T]

It gets confusing. I wanted a Blue Chip pick but couldn't find out anything on their website as to which bevel to get. Matthew e-mailed me and said basically that if you hold your pick in your right hand its a right hand bevel........

It doesn't inspire much confidence when a pick manufacturer doesn't understand the different ways that players hold a pick. I ended up with several Wegen picks with the wrong bevel because the seller was certain that right-handed was correct. Most of the time I use a beveled pick, but it is a symmetrical bevel.

Bryan

[jasona]

A related question: pick towards the fingertips or back towards the palm?

[Mike Bunting]

It gets confusing. I wanted a Blue Chip pick but couldn't find out anything on their website as to which bevel to get. Matthew e-mailed me and said basically that if you hold your pick in your right hand its a right hand beve

I believe if you talk to Matt at BC, you can get one w/o the bevel, I know you can if you talk to Michel Wegen. I hate bevels!