Learning the fretboard

[JonZ]

You are quoting the generalizations that I made and leaving out the supporting reasoning and evidence I provided. So, yes, by taking things out of context, you can make the claim that I am "just stating my opinion". But it is intellectually dishonest.

Your personal preference may be to take a meandering walk, but it would not make stating that a straight line is the shortest distance between two points "personal opinion". The fastest way to gain instant recall, is to practice it. But do something else, if you prefer.

[Mark Gunter]

We may be more in agreement than you think.

The fastest way to gain instant recall, is to practice it.

I agree with that entirely. It is the most important part of the regimen I've prescribed to myself: place a finger on a fret anywhere on the fretboard and practicing recall of the note name. Where we disagree is in the means to accomplish that. Following is a personal opinion:

I would recommend reviewing them without the mandolin in hand. Forcing yourself to "see" the fretboard in your mind will make a stronger memory.

You would have to be omniscient to know the strength of my memory as related to the various means I use for assimilating information. I would imagine that even if you were to perform a well-documented study of the strength of people's memory with regards to the means by which they assimilate information, the best you could hope for is data with statistical importance - not an iron-clad rule to be used exclusively in the education of every person on the planet.

Do you alone understand how to learn the notes of the fretboard? You have an opinion on which is the best way. Great! I applaud your input. Of all the good responses here, only you have espoused flash cards. I suppose all other suggestions are invalid? According to you, I am not only wrong, I am also intellectually dishonest. And again I say to you, that is merely your opinion, and I disagree.

Finally, in another effort to steer the thread back on track, I will repeat: Thank you for your input that actually relates to the topic, it is much appreciated by me and I'm sure others have found it a useful contribution as well. Be of good cheer.

[Luna Pick]

Semantics and logic aside, Happy Holidays everyone. . .

[Mark Gunter]

Happy Holidays, Luna pick!

[JonZ]

Mark,

By trying to disprove my argument, you are demonstrating that it is not just an opinion; an opinion cannot be proven wrong.

I am hoping that 2017 will be the year that Americans learn the difference between an opinion and an argument. Opinions do not require facts or reason. Arguments do.

Huge difference.

It's fine if you disagree with me, and great if you prove me wrong--because I will be the better for it. But when everything is "just an opinion", truth becomes a popularity contest. Don't be wishy washy. If you think someone is wrong, explain why and own your argument, while also being open to the possibility that you could be wrong.

[DougC]

I may be very late to this topic and I need to read more of this thread, but I use a pencil and a scrap of paper and try to write out from memory things like the circle of fifths, patterns of scales in TAB as well as on my hand drawn fretboard chart of 5 or 6 frets.

My wife said the other day, 'You don't know your chords because you don't practice them, you noodle all day with melody'. Ouch!
But she had a point. And it is the same in learning the fretboard. If I don't work at it, it won't get better.

The hard part is in having patience with myself. There is just too much to learn. (She has a 30 year 'head start' so 'closing the gap' is all I can hope for. My personal best is the goal; most of the time. Ha, ha.)

[JonZ]

Any method can work through sheer repetition, but I would suggest that your approach has two problems. First, you are practicing the "easy" notes as much as the "hard" notes. You probably already know the open notes, twelfth fret, fifth fret, so why practice them as much as the ones you are trying to learn? Also the easy notes give you a reference for figuring out the hard notes: "If this is G, the next one is G sharp". You aren't forcing yourself to recall them. It would be better to prioritize which notes you practice and try to identify and locate notes without reference to others.

Practicing the stuff you already know is what creates that feeling of "too much to learn", because if you are always adding new stuff and do not stop practicing learned stuff, you will inevitably run out of practice time.

[Phil Goodson]

Honestly I'm always surprised by people's difficulty with learning the fingerboard. My take:

1. Learning the notes on the frets with sidemarkers (5, 7, 10) then allows recognition of the others 'on the fly'. e.g. The note below A is Ab. You don't even have to vocalize this relationship. You just know it and act accordingly.

2. Notes on the 5th fret are usually learned just from playing in the first position and don't even require specific memorization.

3. Notes on the 7th fret are pretty obvious just from knowing how to tune a mandolin. Same note as next higher string. So you just have to remember that B is the note on the 1st string (7th fret).

4. So...... the 10th fret is the only one requiring active efforts at memorizing. FCGD.

Done.

Okay. I know that thinking about the above points don't immediately make you able to point to a note and name it without a little practice. But if you take 5 seconds each time you pick up the mandolin to focus on just ONE note that isn't obvious to you and repeat focusing on the same note several occasions in a row, it sticks pretty quickly.

E.g. "2nd string,fret 10 is G." Look at it. G. Next time: do the same. Done.
Next week choose a different note to focus on. etc...

You'll still have to touch up the memory a little. I still have to think about that B on the D string once in a while.

Think about it. One note at a time.
I hope these suggestions help a little bit.

[DougC]

Practicing the stuff you already know is what creates that feeling of "too much to learn", because if you are always adding new stuff and do not stop practicing learned stuff, you will inevitably run out of practice time.

I was acting 'dumb' on purpose. You guys fell into my trap fairly easily.

But I could not agree more with your answers.

There is a psychological aspect as others have said which brings to mind a good story (again using myself as the dummie, ha, ha.)

I was at a workshop at the Classical Mandolin Society of Am. The instructor, who will remain nameless, but he is well known. He had people play an A note, anywhere on the fretboard. We were to 'go around the room' each of us playing one note. There were over thirty players in the room, so we had plenty of time to look for a note on our instruments. But when he pointed to me, I froze and could not do it!
I did this three or four times, and he got a little miffed at me. This was 'easy peazy' I'd been on really tough gigs before in all kinds of situations but when he pointed, I melted. Now I don't know if I can ever say hello to the guy in the future. It was very embarrassing.

[Mark Gunter]

I may be very late to this topic and I need to read more of this thread, but I use a pencil and a scrap of paper and try to write out from memory things like the circle of fifths, patterns of scales in TAB as well as on my hand drawn fretboard chart of 5 or 6 frets.

My wife said the other day, 'You don't know your chords because you don't practice them, you noodle all day with melody'. Ouch!
But she had a point. And it is the same in learning the fretboard. If I don't work at it, it won't get better.

The hard part is in having patience with myself. There is just too much to learn. (She has a 30 year 'head start' so 'closing the gap' is all I can hope for. My personal best is the goal; most of the time. Ha, ha.)

Hey Doug, not sure where you were acting dumb on purpose, your anecdotes seem just human to me. I agree that we can't learn the fretboard without some effort. I recently decided to work at it, and was reading old posts for encouragement when I resurrected this old thread. I've got my teeth into it now. It's an important task in my opinion.

Mark,

By trying to disprove my argument, you are demonstrating that it is not just an opinion; an opinion cannot be proven wrong.

I am hoping that 2017 will be the year that Americans learn the difference between an opinion and an argument. Opinions do not require facts or reason. Arguments do.

Huge difference.

It's fine if you disagree with me, and great if you prove me wrong--because I will be the better for it. But when everything is "just an opinion", truth becomes a popularity contest. Don't be wishy washy. If you think someone is wrong, explain why and own your argument, while also being open to the possibility that you could be wrong.

Hi Jon, I'm usually open to the possibility that I could be wrong, and concerning the task at hand I haven't mastered it and have no advice as yet for anyone seeking to master it. I'm in learning mode here, and have been happy to consider all suggestions made here and elsewhere. I have nowhere tried to disprove your argument, but rather have quoted remarks that I felt at the time warranted a response, and hoped to illuminate the difference between facts and conclusions. I think you may state conclusions that amount to your opinion as though they are facts. I'll give you this: You are both obstinate and confident.

I downloaded Anki software last night as well as the deck you linked to in your Classified Ad post. Set the timer for five minutes, and began last night with it, spent another five minutes today. I am hoping that it will help me learn the notes cold. This is one of my current goals on my newbie mandolin journey.

[DougC]

Go Mark! We are with you.

I'm sure JonZ is with us too. Just different assumptions, based on the brief amount of information here.

I have some nice software but I'll have to check on the exact names. It helps, but you have to do the work. (My book and pencil seem to be the best at making progress however).

[DougC]

Ah ha! I found them.
The first is exactly focused on learning the fretboard.
Included in the software is an article that really makes you feel like this author really knows you and he understands. There is no doubt that he 'has your number' and there is no doubt that you need to do your work. Period. I need to read it again and get more humble. Ha, ha.
It is called the Absolute Fretboard Trainer

http://www.absolutefretboard.com/aft/mandolin.asp

The other is about learning chords and music theory. Scott Sharp is the author and he has a ton of videos along with a digital method 'book'. This guy is just a darned good organizer. Which is what I need...

This is called the Fretboard Toolbox

http://www.fretboard-toolbox.com/mandolin.html

I also have a good music theory book that someone at mandolin cafe mentioned. It is a gem of a book. Not too pedantic and dry. Not incomplete or weird either.
Music Theory for Practical People by Ed Roseman

And then there is my wife who has taught violin for many years and often makes me feel darned humble. (Thanks Judith!)

All the best.
Doug

[jshane]

Well. In a different vein--

one of the things I found to be helpful in learning to use the keyboard (which may be different than being able to recite the keyboard) was to locate significant major and minor chord fingerings WITHIN the FFCP patterns as played across all 4 string-pairs. With this, in any given key and FFCP pattern OF that key, I was able to visualize the I, ii, iii, IV, V vi and dim vii chord shapes that were embedded within that FFCP pattern as expressed across the keyboard. I'm still working with this, but have so far found it to be very helpful-- particularly when faced with playing along to a new progression.

Maybe this is old hat, but it was an eye-opener to me.

[Bill Findley]

"...standard bluegrass shapes and licks..." Wow, what I'd give to know a bunch more of those.

I'ma keep on pluggin'

Bill

[Mark Gunter]

Doug, that software, absolute fretboard, looks nice, but I won't check it out due to the $50 cost - I'm not thrilled about using software rather than the actual mandolin fretboard to start with. It appears that absolute fretboard charts your progress with a color-coded display, but the description doesn't indicate that it has logic so that software will focus more on the red areas than the green. Maybe it has this logic, but I can't imagine the developer not stating that.

I plan to try the free solution JonZ mentioned (I started with it last night) for five minutes a day, along with my own work on the mandolin itself. It is a free solution with logic to serve you more of the hard stuff as you progress. If it doesn't help, I might consider another software, but I am of the opinion that time on the mandolin is the most important thing. Five minutes in a single software memory game is enough for me.

The Fretboard toolbox people have interesting stuff, I've see some of their stuff on here before and on YouTube. Do you use any of their offerings?

Edited: I see from your earlier post that you do have something from Fretboard toolbox for learning chords and music theory. Hopefully it has been helpful to you.

[JonZ]

As you use that Anki deck, the important thing is to rate yourself for instant recall. If you know it instantly, it is "good". If you need two beats to remember it, it is "hard". If you have to derive the answer, fail the card.

If you don't know the answer right away, go ahead and try to figure it out. Then check your answer. But rate the "ease" of the card based on how successful you are isn't that first instant.

[Ivan Kelsall]

The way i taught myself to play mandolin is the same way that i taught myself to play banjo & guitar & it works (or did for me). I really would encourage new players to search for ''the sounds'' on the fingerboard - forget the names of the notes for the time being,they will come along in due course. You really don't need to know the 'names of the notes' in order to find them & play them,but when you do find the place where the right note(s) is,make a note (no pun intended) of it's name. Over time,you'll know where the sounds are & their names. I never made any consious effort to ''learn the names'' of the notes,but i can name 'em all. Play the music & the rest will come,
Ivan

[jshane]

.... Play the music & the rest will come,
Ivan

I think this is really true.

[DougC]

I am 'matching up the sounds' to the names of the notes. A good comment, know the sounds first.

Like anything else, a quick review is not an in depth study. The software I suggested goes much farther than a quick look indicates.e.g. the color coding indicates how many wrong answers. The guys that wrote both of thoes programs really know their stuff. So if you don't work at it, it won't help you. But I understand the need for something 'free'.

My favorite 'free' online program with 'flash card' like functions is:
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons

There is plenty of 'free' advice right here. I could spend all day just working on some of them!

[Pete Martin]

1) Major scales in every key, all positions.

2) Major, minor and dominant seven arpeggios in every key.

3) If you also play jazz, then arpeggios for sixth, major seventh, minor seventh, minor sixth, minor/major seventy, diminished and half diminished chords.

4) scales for all chords in 3) above.

[Bill Findley]

JonZ, just downloaded your Anki cards -- works great for me, an intermediate player who knows quite a few BG and Oldtime tunes but hasn't felt the need to really know the fretboard till recently. Like the simple format. Thank you!

[JeffD]

With this, in any given key and FFCP pattern OF that key, I was able to visualize the I, ii, iii, IV, V vi and dim vii chord shapes that were embedded within that FFCP pattern as expressed across the keyboard. .

This kind of thing, the fretboard pattern that can be used in any key, is of more immediate use than being able to recite the keyboard.

Peter Martin's comment is spot on, you eventually have to be able to do all that and more. But by.... well no buts. Ya just gotta.

Learning the patterns that can be taken up and down and across the fret board, I think is a way of "getting there" that produces immediate fruit, the immediate ability to do something useful in every key. And of course the feeling of competence that will keep you in the game fighting. Because the focus is on being useful and making music up the neck.

What to call the stuff you learn, what letter names apply when, well that comes. But, YMMV, but I think being able to do stuff and not know what to call it is a better transition place than to be able to name all kinds of stuff you can't do. I mean neither one is the complete musician, but if you have to choose....

[Mark Gunter]

This kind of thing, the fretboard pattern that can be used in any key, is of more immediate use than being able to recite the keyboard.

Peter Martin's comment is spot on, you eventually have to be able to do all that and more. But by.... well no buts. Ya just gotta.

Learning the patterns that can be taken up and down and across the fret board, I think is a way of "getting there" that produces immediate fruit, the immediate ability to do something useful in every key. And of course the feeling of competence that will keep you in the game fighting. Because the focus is on being useful and making music up the neck.

What to call the stuff you learn, what letter names apply when, well that comes. But, YMMV, but I think being able to do stuff and not know what to call it is a better transition place than to be able to name all kinds of stuff you can't do. I mean neither one is the complete musician, but if you have to choose....

Don't know who would have an argument with you there, Jeff. Maybe some or most of the guys who are interested in learning the notes cold are already learning patterns and playing up the neck. I guess I just don't see mutual exclusivity here. One (and only one) of my goals this year is to learn the notes of the fretboard cold. I see it as a worthy thing, and if I fail this year, no harm done. It won't stop me from learning patterns or tunes or ... anything else I put my musical hand to. I'd imagine that there are others who feel the same. Variety, spice, you know, all that stuff.

[zedmando]

This is one thing I still need to know better--I know the guitar & bass fretboards so well--and since the mandolin is flipped I tend to think of it that way--just flip it in my head--but I want to be able to do that without flipping it--I sort of do that--so some good info here...

Thanks,

[JeffD]

I guess I just don't see mutual exclusivity here. One (and only one) of my goals this year is to learn the notes of the fretboard cold..

No, you are right, they are not, (or need not be) mutually exclusive. I think I am also reacting to a a few folks I know personally, one on mandolin and two on guitar, who seem to be delaying getting up the neck thinking they need to learn the notes of the fretboard first.