12 bar blues scale?

[tuckerman]

I'm new and I did a search but could not find anything. Anyway my grandfather gave me his Mandolin in August and I stared to try and teach myself. That was ok but I just started to take lessons with an old dood down the road. I'm to practice a 12 bar blues scale in different notes. Here is where I have some trouble a G note as opposed to a G chord is throwing me for a loop. Is the G note the 2nd fret of the G string? And how about a G7 is that one fret back???


On Paper it goes GGGG GGGG GGGG ........

[pickloser]

Re: 12 bar blues scale?

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A "G" note can be found in many places on the mandolin. Going from closest to your face to furthest from your face while holding the mando in playing position, the strings are G, then D, then A, then E. (A way to remember is "(G)reat (D)anes (A)re (E)legant."

The lowest string (the one closest to your face while playing) is the G string and is itself a G note when played open. One string further away from your face is tuned to be a D note. Fret this string at the fifth fret, and you have another G note. On the first string, the one furthest from your face, there is another G, fretted at the 3rd fret. There are others on up the neck. I suggest you do a search here or at Jazz Mando or many other places to find a chart of a mandolin fretboard with the notes written on it.

G7 refers to a chord, not a note. It means play a G chord and add a dominant 7. A dominant 7 G chord, or G7, means you should add a flatted 7th tone to the chord, which for G would be an F note--which is a "flatted" F#. A G7 chord would be G, B, D, and F. (A major 7th, which would often be designated as "Gmaj7," means add to the chord the regular 7th tone of the scale, which would be F# in the G scale.)

Notes that can be played in 12 bar blues would include the following tones of the major scale: 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7. For the G scale (G A B C D E F# G), 1 = G; b3 = Bb; 4 = C; b5 = Db/C#; 5 = D; b7 = F. So, generally, and others may have a different view of what a proper blues scale would be, the G blues scale is G Bb C-Db-D F G.

The G blues scale notes can be played on the first seven frets of a mando as follows:
G string: open string G, 3rd fret Bb, 5th fret C, 6th fret C#/Db, 7th fret D
D string: open D (repeating the last note on the previous string), 3rd fret F, 5th fret G
A string: 1st fret Bb, 3rd fret C, 4th fret Db, 5th fret D
E string: 1st fret F, 3rd fret G, 6th fret Bb

I call the 4th, b5, and 5 (in G, the C-Db-D) the "slidey notes," because I think they sound best when I slide thru them, up or down.

You probably need to contact "old dood" and ask what he meant. I don't know if you are supposed to practice the chords for 12 bar blues in different keys or learn the blues scales for different keys, or both.

Good luck and happy pickin'

[mandroid]

the blues scale and the number of measures of the tune are separate things. you should realize .

saves future confusion when encountering a 16 or more measure arrangements .

[tuckerman]

Re: 12 bar blues scale?

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G7 refers to a chord, not a note. It means play a G chord and add a dominant 7. A dominant 7 G chord, or G7, means you should add a flatted 7th tone to the chord, which for G would be an F note--which is a "flatted" F#. A G7 chord would be G, B, D, and F. (A major 7th, which would often be designated as "Gmaj7," means add to the chord the regular 7th tone of the scale, which would be F# in the G scale.)

Notes that can be played in 12 bar blues would include the following tones of the major scale: 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7. For the G scale (G A B C D E F# G), 1 = G; b3 = Bb; 4 = C; b5 = Db/C#; 5 = D; b7 = F. So, generally, and others may have a different view of what a proper blues scale would be, the G blues scale is G Bb C-Db-D F G.

The G blues scale notes can be played on the first seven frets of a mando as follows:
G string: open string G, 3rd fret Bb, 5th fret C, 6th fret C#/Db, 7th fret D
D string: open D (repeating the last note on the previous string), 3rd fret F, 5th fret G
A string: 1st fret Bb, 3rd fret C, 4th fret Db, 5th fret D
E string: 1st fret F, 3rd fret G, 6th fret Bb

I call the 4th, b5, and 5 (in G, the C-Db-D) the "slidey notes," because I think they sound best when I slide thru them, up or down.

You probably need to contact "old dood" and ask what he meant. I don't know if you are supposed to practice the chords for 12 bar blues in different keys or learn the blues scales for different keys, or both.

Good luck and happy pickin'

Thanks I think I will need to pull out the Mandolin and notes when I get home from work.

[earthsave]

Tuckerman, also poke around on this here website. It's got tons of useful info. This should get you started.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/lessons.html

http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/chords/ch.pl

http://www.mandolincafe.com/tabarc.html

[tuckerman]

ok he has it written as

gggg gggg gggg g7g7g7g7 cccc cccc gggg gggg dddd cccc gggg d7d7d7d7.

[ApK]

He is showing you a 12 bar blues chord progression in the key of G. Looks like he's written out the beats in 4/4 time:
The letters he wrote each represent a chord for one beat.
Each group of 4 represents one measure, 4 beats per measure.
4 measures of a G chord, in his case he's saying to use G major for the first three, then the G7 chord, which is a popular bluesy extension, for the fourth.
Then two measures of C major chord,
then two more of G major,
then one of D major,
one of C major,
one of G major
and one of the D7 chord.

Old dudes with lots of mojo don't always use the clearest and most accurate terminology to convey the stuff they do in words. If you get a good foundation on the basic terms and theory, then you'll understand what he's showing you and why, and you'll probably get even more out of it.

ApK

[tuckerman]

ok he has it written as

gggg gggg gggg g7g7g7g7 cccc cccc gggg gggg dddd cccc gggg d7d7d7d7.

so its open G = open, G7 = 3ed fret, C = 5th fret, D = 7th fret, and D7 = 6th fret?

[Mike Bromley]

ok he has it written as

gggg gggg gggg g7g7g7g7 cccc cccc gggg gggg dddd cccc gggg d7d7d7d7.

The letters refer to chords, Tuckerman. See the image below. These are the simplest chords for the mandolin, there are many other chord shapes thet can be used, but these will get you started.

[ApK]

No. We are talking chords, you are thinking notes. You need to follow some of the links above and get a basic understanding of what these terms mean.
You can't be expected to understand something you are told if you don't know what the words mean.

I may have to write up a primer. I looked at a bunch of the free "intro to music to theory" websites online, and while there are many that are REALLY good, many seem to start with clefs and staffs and other elements of written music or other seemingly complex or tedious subject that might turn people off from page one.

[tuckerman]

The letters refer to chords, Tuckerman. See the image below. These are the simplest chords for the mandolin, there are many other chord shapes thet can be used, but these will get you started.

Thank you.

Now how does that relate to to 1-2-34-5-6-78? Or is that something way different its all notes he scribbled down for me.

[Mike Bromley]

Thank you.

Now how does that relate to to 1-2-34-5-6-78? Or is that something way different its all notes he scribbled down for me.

I'm not sure on that one, but it looks as though he was describing timing by the way the numbers are written above.

HOWEVER

If he was describing scale notes, they are as follows:

Doh=1
ray=2
me=3
fah=4
so=5
la=6
tee=7
doh=8 (actually "1", again)

Refer back to the letters for the chords for a moment: Notice they are laid out in twelve groups of four.

If you tap your foot four times, that is a measure, or bar (the twelve BAR blues). Each bar is four beats, hence the four chords marked. There are twelve bars (the twelve groups of four). If you play the chords on a 1-2-3-4 per bar, you will begin to hear the pattern of a blues tune.

[pickloser]

I think the 1 2 34 5 6 78 he scribbled down for you must mean he wants you to figure out the G scale. He seems to be pointing out that the 3rd and 4th tones of a scale are on adjacent frets (no fret in between), and the 7th and 8th tones don't have a fret between them and are also on adjacent frets.

G scale: G A B C D E F# G
4th/G string--G is open string; A is fretted at the second fret away from the nut and the tuners; B is 4th fret; C is 5th fret

3rd/D string--D is the open D string; E is 2nd fret; F# is 4th fret; G is 5th fret

2nd/A string--A is open A string; B is 2nd fret; C is 3rd fret; D is 5th fret

1st/E string--E is open E string; F# is 2nd fret; G is 3rd fret

That's two octaves of the G scale, 1 2 34 5 6 78. "8" is really the "1" an octave higher. Notice that instead of playing any of those open strings, you could play that same note on the next lower (in pitch) string at the 7th fret. Sing the note names as you pick each note, and you'll learn them faster and start training your ears at the same time. It will sound like two runs of "Do Re Mi."

You might want to look for a book or DVD. Professor McGann's would be a good choice. Also check out the used stuff in the Accessories section of the Classifieds.

Good luck and happy pickin,

[Mike Bromley]

Good Deciphering, Pickloser! I pondered that for a while, and it drew a blank. Then I noticed my pick was gone...

....Juuuuuuuuuuuuust kidding....

Hopefully we'll get young Tuckerman pointed in the right direction.

[tuckerman]

Thats it if I remember correctly. I can't wait to get home from work now and get this down for Thursday.

[AlanN]

The letters refer to chords, Tuckerman. See the image below. These are the simplest chords for the mandolin, there are many other chord shapes thet can be used, but these will get you started.

Mike, I like that thumbnail chord chart, where did you get it?

[Mike Bromley]

Mike, I like that thumbnail chord chart, where did you get it?

Five minutes in Paint! I could conceivably whup up a whole mess of 'em in an hour or so. Speaking of which, back to Tuckerman's ongoing lesson:

I forgot to include which fingers to use when forming the chords above. My Bad.

T'man: Your index finger is #1. We'll get to the pinky (#4) later.

[ApK]

Good Deciphering, Pickloser!

Yeah, good catch. I was thinking timing or rhythm.
Reminds me of those pundle puzzles where you have you figure out that "III^3" means "ice cube"...maybe we should start a thread like that.....

[MandoJam]

I'm probably just echoing everything else that has been said but "12 Bar Blues Scale" makes no sense at all. There is a "12 bar Blues" which is a traditional form--- and then there is a "Blues Scale" that plays over a 12 bar blues.

12 bar blues in its most simple form is: (4 strums per chord)

G C G G C C G G D C G D

"Blues Scale" is Root(G) b3 4 b5 5 b7 (G)

[Mike Bromley]

I'm probably just echoing everything else that has been said but "12 Bar Blues Scale" makes no sense at all. There is a "12 bar Blues" which is a traditional form--- and then there is a "Blues Scale" that plays over a 12 bar blues.

12 bar blues in its most simple form is: (4 strums per chord)

G C G G C C G G D C G D

"Blues Scale" is Root(G) b3 4 b5 5 b7 (G)

We'll get to the bottom of this! You're right, the thread title is a bit odd, but I think that Tuckerman's local teacher is one who knows little music theory, and has passed along some info for him to 'decipher'.

As for the simple form above, that would be one of many. For neophyte T'man, sticking to one or two patterns is peobably good for now!

(Feel free to weigh in, T'man!)

[tuckerman]

I was looking at last night and next is that same 12 bar blues but in E. Do I just move up the fret board 2 frets for everything? Which would make it a scale, maybe??

[ApK]

I was looking at last night and next is that same 12 bar blues but in E. Do I just move up the fret board 2 frets for everything? Which would make it a scale, maybe??

No. you don't just move the chord patterns up, and that is not a scale, and it wouldn't be 2 frets from G to E in any case, and it wouldn't up, it would down. It's playing in a chord progression in a different key.
You REALLY need to read just a little bit on what a note is, what scale is, what a chord is and what a key is.
I'm serious, you are doing your self a terrible disservice and holding your self back by just asking individual questions when you do not understand what the words mean. You can't possibly understand the answers your getting with out that info.

I will try to write something up at lunchtime if you haven't gotten a primer by then.

MandoJam, I'd argue that 12-bar blues in it's MOST basic form in GGGG CCGG DCGG, or end on D for a turnaround like his teacher showed him, no need throw in that 'quick IV' variation and confuse things more here yet!

ApK

[Mike Bromley]

I was looking at last night and next is that same 12 bar blues but in E. Do I just move up the fret board 2 frets for everything? Which would make it a scale, maybe??

Nope!

You are going into uncharted territory...let's stay in G for a moment.

To review, a SCALE is doh-ray-me-fah-so-la-tee-doh. Just to make sure, check out the attached tablature fragment below, and have a listen to its MP3 file.

[tuckerman]

-what a note is
-what scale is
-what a chord is
-what a key is


I will try to write something up at lunchtime if you haven't gotten a primer by then.

That would be great I have looked all over the intertubes for "what is a mandolin note" I have not found much but have a lot more questions.

[Mike Bromley]

Now the CHORDS, refer to the earlier diagrams above.

Here is the TAB and the MP3 for the progression. When viewing the tab image make sure you magnify it in its window.

Hope it helps!