Just how scared should you be of ebay?

[markishandsome]

No mando content:
A "better" way to steal pictures that have the right-click protection is to look at the html source and find the link to the original full-size hi-res image. Some pages of course block your ability to view the page source, but you can get that out of your cache. I'm not advocating stealing copyrighted material, but it can be done by anyone with basic computer skills, let alone professional hackers.

I tend to think that ebay scammers are not high-tech villains capable of doing a lot of damage. You have to be pretty thickheaded to think you can copy a current auction for a high-ticked one of a kind item and nobody will notice. Like someone already said, the scams that get posted here are pretty obvious and almost always get taken down. Successful scammers are more subtle.

[TomTyrrell]

You have no proof of exactly what action eBay responded to, do you?

Are you seriously trying to discourage people from using eBay's fraud reporting system?

I think you're way off the mark here.

ApK

Nope, I'm not the one off the mark here.


On another thread F5Loar posted the reply he got from eBay when he reported a fraudulent item. Here it is:

"Thank you for writing eBay in regard to your report on image and text theft.
I reviewed all the information you sent, but I don't have enough evidence to show that the seller violated any eBay policies.
Sometimes members allow others to use their images. It's also possible that the seller got the photo from the same source or from a source we can't verify. In either case, we can't remove the listing.
The only way we can take action in a case like this is if the person who owns the image or text writes to us directly.
If you feel strongly about this issue, I recommend that you contact the content owner and suggest that he or she contact us. Once we hear from the owner, we can respond appropriately.
It is my pleasure to assist you.
Thank you for choosing eBay."

[ApK]

Nope. The "case like this" in that case was use of copyrighted content -- text and image, says so right there, and of course only the copyright holder can say whether protected content is being used with out permission. No one else would know.
We are talking about reporting a fraud and other violations of eBay rules. Totally different cases.
In the case in this thread, we're reporting that someone was claiming to sell a mandolin that he doesn't own. The fatc that he copied pictures or text was irrelevant. It just so happened that the evidence of the fraud was right there in another auction, so it was easy for us, and for eBay to see. He could have been claiming to sell a mando that didn't ever exisit with a photo-shopped picture. Any expert from this site may have noticed it and reported it. It may have taken longer to get pulled...don't know what eBay may or may not have not done to validate the claim...but it sure would not have required the report to come from a non-existent owner of an imaginary mando.

There doesn't even have to be another eBayer involved. If I saw someone advertising a stick of dynamite, I report it to eBay as a violation, and it gets taken down. eBay does not wait for the ghost of Alfred Nobel to write in about it.

We don't need to argue about it here. Read the message you get if you submit a report through the fraud system. It tells you what they do for fraud claims just like the message you quoted says what they do for copyright infringement claims.

"Thank you for writing eBay's SafeHarbor Department about a listing or
seller you would like us to investigate for fraudulent activity. We are
concerned about this type of activity and want to assure you that we
will review your report as soon as possible, usually within 72 hours.

Due to privacy concerns, we will not keep you informed about the status
of our investigation. While you will only receive this acknowledgement
of the receipt of your report, please be assured that we will thoroughly
review the situation."


You'll notice that's says nothing about content owners, or text and images.
If what you were saying applied here, I should have gotten the same message f5loar got.

eBay's stated policy, observation of fraudulent auctions, and Occam's Razor makes it quite clear:
If you see evidence of a scam or other illegal activity in an auction, no matter who you are, report it to eBay. That's the only way it can be noticed, investigated, and addressed.


ApK

[TomTyrrell]

ApK, PLEASE spend some time learning about eBay's policies before you go spouting a bunch of untrue theories and misleading others.

Your example of dynamite is useless. Dynamite is one of the things not allowed on eBay. A listing for the sale of dynamite is a violation of eBay's policies and as soon as eBay becomes aware of it they will cancel the listing. Offering to sell outside of eBay is ALSO a violation of eBay policies.

Please read this line again "The only way we can take action in a case like this is if the person who owns the image or text writes to us directly."

Or take a few minutes and read this page http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...ext-theft.html . Please take particular note of the line that says "Note: You must own the rights to the text or images you are reporting for unauthorized use." A listing that uses another person's photos or descriptions is only a violation of eBay policy if the owner of the photos and descriptions did NOT give permission to copy. The OWNER of the photos and descriptions is the ONLY person who really knows he didn't give permission. Ebay has no way to know beyond any doubt whether the seller actually does have the item he is listing.

If you see a listing that violates someone's copyright or Trademark contact the OWNER of the copyright or Trademark. If you see a listing that uses photos or descriptions from another seller's listing contact that SELLER. If you see a listing that obviously violates eBay's policies report it to eBay. It really isn't all that difficult to understand.

[Scott Tichenor]

While we're asking others to read, let me chime in and encourage a few of you to read this, the first rule of the forum posting guidelines that is also a part of your continuing membership and participation here:

Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution. A good rule of thumb is don't say anything on the message board that you wouldn’t say to someone in person.

[ApK]

ApK, Note: You must own the rights to the text or images you are reporting for unauthorized use."

OK, since reading IS fundamental, and we're encouraging people to read stuff, my LAST comment on this particular issue is: Read this thread. We are not talking about "the unauthorized use of text or images." If we were, I'd be agreeing with you.
We are talking about fraud, in this case, the attempt to get $31,000 for a mandolin that you don't have. The reuse of the picture and and text, as I've said here a number of times, was incidental to the issue and irrelevant.
Totally different issue, totally different policy, totally different requirements for action, all spelled out in black and white, or the text colors of your choice, on eBay's site and in this thread in quoted policy messages.

The only point of arguing this here as long as we have: Making cafe members in the eBay community more vigilant, and therefore safer.
If you see signs of fraud in an eBay auction, report it to eBay. Kind of a no-brainer, really.
IF there happens to be an other ebay seller involved you think has stake in the matter, tell them, too, by all means, the more the merrier.

Happy Hanukkah!

ApK

[TomTyrrell]

We are not talking about "the unauthorized use of text or images." If we were, I'd be agreeing with you.
We are talking about fraud, in this case, the attempt to get $31,000 for a mandolin that you don't have. The reuse of the picture and and text, as I've said here a number of times, was incidental to the issue and irrelevant.

The reuse of the photos and description is the ONLY relevant issue.
Read eBay's policies. There is no restriction against two people selling the same product on eBay for different prices. There are thousands of items on eBay offered by multiple sellers for different prices.

How do you or eBay know for sure, without a shadow of a doubt that individual doesn't have that mandolin?

The answer is you don't and neither does eBay. You are pretty sure he doesn't have it based on what you read here. BUT, you don't actually have that mandolin in your possession so your conclusions are based solely on your belief that the other party does indeed have the mandolin and that it is the ONLY mandolin like that in the world. Even the Gibson company does not have records showing that they did not make two identical mandolins with the same serial number.

The ONLY valid reason eBay would have to cancel that auction was due to unauthorized copying of the photos and descriptions. And the ONLY person, other than the "seller", who knows the copying was unauthorized is the OWNER of the photos and description.

[Charles Johnson]

As a website owner with a lot of pictures of mandolins, I have them ripped off for eBay auctions several times a year. There is not a lot I can do to stop my pics from being ripped off. I think the watermarks that some sites use detract from the visuals. I do use a distinctive background for all of my pictures which helps to identify the source of the pics. There is a program that turns a .jpg into sort of jigsaw puzzle with several segments, but I have not found a reliable source for it.

I usually get several emails almost immediately informing me of the fake ad. If I email eBay they usually take it down in a day or two. Thats cutting it close with a three day auction. It is a PITA however, and sometimes I am busy and do not have time to send long detailed emails to large impersonal auction sites.

Bottom line, ask questions and know your seller. A real seller has nothing to hide and will give you a phone number and address to contact him. They will send pics that are not in the listing. If you get evasive answers, or no answer to your emails, buy somewhere else. If you win the auction and do not have good info from the seller, don't send any money. Better a non-paying bidder strike than losing lots of $$.

Charles Johnson

PS - does anyone know where to get the jpeg-to-jigsaw-puzzle software?

[Scott Tichenor]

PS - does anyone know where to get the jpeg-to-jigsaw-puzzle software?

I wouldn't suggest investing any money or effort in such a program. It's just going to create more work for you. Anyone can do a screen shot and paste into any image program and have your image in seconds. There's money in crime. Count on the fact that people engaging in this will find ways to get around your efforts.

[MikeEdgerton]

Charles, you could adopt the policy of one of your online competitors that answered an e-mail I sent to him about images from his web site being used in a fraudulent auction on eBay. His reply to me was "Mike, it isn't my job to fix the competition's problems." As hard as that might be for some to swallow I can see his point. One easy thing to do is to simply add your your name to the picture without covering any of the parts. Yes, it can be removed but most of these guys seem to want to do things the easy way. You can add that on with Microsoft Paint.

[theBlood]

...Bottom line, ask questions and know your seller. A real seller has nothing to hide and will give you a phone number and address to contact him. They will send pics that are not in the listing. If you get evasive answers, or no answer to your emails, buy somewhere else....Charles Johnson


This was my thought while reading the flood of exchanges about ebay's policies. I can't imagine someone buying a good instrument without at least a few emails. I've found you can tell a great deal from the seller's writing style. The likelihood of getting a thoughtful and well written response from a thief is quite small.

[jim_n_virginia]

[QUOTE=Charles Johnson;609786]
Bottom line, ask questions and know your seller. A real seller has nothing to hide and will give you a phone number and address to contact him. They will send pics that are not in the listing. If you get evasive answers, or no answer to your emails, buy somewhere else. QUOTE]


good advice! You have to play detective a little to be safe. You'd be surprised what you can learn from someone with just a friendly chat on the phone and a few emails.

When I buy and instrument I almost always find out where they live and verify it, do a reverse phone trace on their home phones, find out where they work etc. It's not hard to do.

And like Mr Johnson said if you get any evasive answers kill the deal a real seller will bend over backwards to sell you the instrument.

[Mandobar]

jim,

i'm not sure of the "bending over backwards" part as anyone who has ever sold anything on-line knows that the amount of tire kicking that goes on can be maddening.

know who you are selling to and know who you are buying from. that is a hard and fast rule in any transaction.

when a deal looks too good to be true, it generally is. so, use your noggin when dealing with ebay folks and folks selling stuff in general. ebay has changed a lot and the buyers seem to have all the power now. i'd be more scared as a seller than a buyer.

[markishandsome]

Elderly instruments puts up a little sign with their logo on it when they take pictures of their instruments. Can't do that on close-up detail shots, but it would inhibit scammers from stealing the full-body shots....maybe...

[Scott Tichenor]

How many ways can I change thee, let me count the ways.

[Scott Tichenor]

I think I may be onto something. Be on the watch for the chickenman seller on eBay! And, swapping out the mandolin would be a ten-minute job... maybe.

[Mandobar]

[Mike Bromley]

I think I may be onto something. Be on the watch for the chickenman seller on eBay! And, swapping out the mandolin would be a ten-minute job... maybe.

The chicken, on the other hand, took only three...

[Charles Johnson]

Hi Mike,
Yes, I can add text to pictures. I have used Photoshop to do that but I think it detracts a lot from the listing.




As to the jpeg to puzzle software, what is does is slice up the picture into segments and reassemble them as a table in the browser. The software ensures that edges line up correctly. When you right click an image all you get is the one segment. Sure, you could download each picture and build a table but that is a LOT of work.

Perhaps an image mapping software? Any help from you technical computer types out there?

Thanks!
Charles

[Mike Bromley]

Interesting approach. Easy to set up, not so easy to disassemble.

[MikeEdgerton]

Charles, what Scott was saying about the Jigsaw software is that a simple screen shot defeats it. Put the text off to one side if need be. That will deter a large number of these people, they'll go someplace with no text first.

[JEStanek]

I thought you meant something like the below image with a puzzle... This is a free photoshop action using Photoshop CS3 available from the special effects section here.

Here is the original image to compare it with. I don't see this as a particularly good solution.


Jamie

[JeffD]

There's money in crime. Count on the fact that people engaging in this will find ways to get around your efforts.

Way too true, unfortunately.