Loar Period Mandocellos

**Marc Berman** · Dec-30-2008, 11:57am

I posted this question in the vintage section but it didn't seem to interest anyone. So I'm trying here. I'm just wondering why the K5's where guitar shaped and not derived from the K4. Did Loar feel that the guitar shaped body was acoustically better for the mandocello or was it just easier to produce? I know that Gail Hester plans on building an F hole version K4 in the future and there are other builders that have done it. Is the K4 body more cumbersome that the guitar style?

**danb** · Dec-30-2008, 2:21pm

Seemed to be F-holes were the design, but maybe it was decided that the extra R&D on the scroll body was not worth it, with the L5 guitar as well.. They only made a handfull of guitars & cellos in style 5.

There've been a few f-holed scroll cellos made recently. Do F-holes work on a mandocello like they do on a smaller instrument? Good question I suppose!

**sunburst** · Dec-30-2008, 2:26pm

A K4 (scroll bearing) body would be an enormous amount more work and time than a guitar shaped body. I don't know what the thought process at Gibson was, but I always figured they just used what they had, that being the L5 body. After all, how many mandocellos could they expect to sell, and what would it cost to design and build an scroll bearing one compared to adding a 'cello neck to a body they already had in production?

**danb** · Dec-30-2008, 3:00pm

It's odd though John, they did make K4s (with virzis no less!) at the time too.. though they get decidedly rarer past '25 or so.

**sunburst** · Dec-30-2008, 3:33pm

Well, that shoots a pretty big hole in my hypothesis, then. Who knows?, maybe guitar shapes were just easier to sell in those days.
Dan, how big was the Virzi in a 'cello?

**lenf12** · Dec-30-2008, 3:50pm

Like most folks in this forum, I have never had the opportunity to see or play a Loar era K-5 mandocello or L-5 guitar. Did Gibson use the exact same body on both models and just swap out different necks? DanB makes a good point concerning the K-4 production during the Loar years. I've only played a couple of teens vintage K-4s and while the neck was quite clubby for my hands, they did sound like the thunder of the gods.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

**danb** · Dec-30-2008, 3:57pm

Originally Posted by sunburst

Well, that shoots a pretty big hole in my hypothesis, then. Who knows?, maybe guitar shapes were just easier to sell in those days.
Dan, how big was the Virzi in a 'cello?

I saw one in an L5- they're frisbee or dinner plate sized!

**Keith Erickson** · Dec-30-2008, 3:58pm

When I first started exploring the world of 'cellos', I found this link:

http://www.santacruzguitar.com/acous...andocello.html

...to the Santa Cruz Guitar Company's Southerner Mandocello. If I am to read this correctly, this is very reminiscent to the Loar era of Mandocello's.

I wish I there was more information on this era of Mandocello. I'm learning just like everyone else

**danb** · Dec-30-2008, 3:59pm

Look at this bad boy (unique, so far!)

And there sure is something about a K4. I've never met one, but friends have told me they are somewhat inferior tonally to K2s.. but then again, who cares!

**Keith Erickson** · Dec-30-2008, 4:05pm

Dan, Which one is the K4 & which one is the K2?

**Marc Berman** · Dec-30-2008, 4:15pm

Keith,

The K4 is the one in the case. A K2 is an A body version. The other pictured mandocello is not a Gibson but sure looks nice!

I've only been playing the mandolin for a year but I know eventually I will have to get a mandocello. I used to play the cello when I was young and have always been drawn to it's sound.

**Keith Erickson** · Dec-30-2008, 4:24pm

Marc, I don't mean to hi-jack your thread but may I throw out this question....

....is it safe to say by the title of this thread that Lloyd Loar also signed mandocello's?

Just curious because the aura of Lloyd Loar has hit the Mandolin Café.....and especially after seeing that new find up in Kansas.

**allenhopkins** · Dec-30-2008, 5:05pm

I wonder if part of the reason for guitar-bodied mandocelli was that under Loar's lead, Gibson was getting out of the scroll-bodied guitar business around the same time. Loar's big innovation, IMHO, was taking Orville G's admiration for the violin as the archetypical stringed instrument even further, by replacing the oval sound hole with f-holes, as well as changing the neck pitch and lengthening the scale.

Pre-Loar, Gibson made guitars that looked somewhat like their mandolins; a 1920 Style O would have a scroll and a "point" -- sort of a semi-scroll -- on the opposite treble side. Loar's f-hole L-5 guitars looked almost modern -- a bit more rounded, but with none of the scroll-and-points ornamentation of his F-5 mandolins.

One wonders what Loar's real preferences as to body shape were -- whether he kept the "F" style scroll-and-points ornaments on the mandolins only as a concession to Gibson's catalog hierarchy, or whether he used guitar bodies for the mandocelli because they were available and easier to build than the K-4 "big scroll-and-points" bodies. And why no f-hole A-body mandolins? Gibson didn't make those until the '30's, I believe. Loar did design an in-between instrument, the tenor lute with its A-shape body, f-holes, and tenor-banjo-like neck, but that one never took off.

All very interesting. Eastman is now making a guitar-body mandocello (I have one) that harkens back to Loar's K-5's. And IMHO it has a "guitary" sound, much different from the '20's K-1 I own. Interesting combination of variables and choices.

**danb** · Dec-30-2008, 5:22pm

The 2 I posted are both K4s.. orange is circa 1905, red is circa 1924

A K2 looks like an A4 mandolin with a thyroid condition

**Marc Berman** · Dec-30-2008, 8:47pm

danb - I didn't know that the original scroll mandocellos where 3 points. That one is in really nice condition.

Keith - Yes Lloyd Loar signed them. Photo from Mandolin Archive - Gibson K5 Mandocello #75255 Signed Signed and dated by Lloyd Loar February 11, 1924 by Lloyd Loar.

Allen - Interesting thoughts. I wonder what caused the shape cutoff. There scrolled H5 mandolas. Though no where near the number of the F5. Also don't forget there is one signed F hole A. Gibson A5 Mandolin #74003 Signed Signed and dated by Lloyd Loar September 20, 1923 by Lloyd Loar.

**danb** · Dec-31-2008, 5:01am

That 3-point one really slays me. The scroll is roughly softball sized, in proportions almost like a harp guitar! It's the only one we know of, though if there was one, why not others?

**Holger** · Jan-11-2009, 9:08am

Hi danb,

congratulations! Wonderful Mandocello.
I am looking for this great K4.
No chance.
Someone wrote me: A Gibson K4 is nearly as rare as hen's teeth.

Holger

**Jim Garber** · Jan-11-2009, 10:55am

Maybe reminiscent but the Santa Cruz MC is a flattop based on the Gibson SJ guitar whereas the Loar MC was based on an L5 Archtop.

I recall that John Monteleone made a few Grand Artist mandocellos and always used oval holes rather than f-holes. Maybe it was the sustain and the tone he seeked. Mike Marshall has one. (See attached).

Originally Posted by Keith Erickson

When I first started exploring the world of 'cellos', I found this link:

http://www.santacruzguitar.com/acous...andocello.html

...to the Santa Cruz Guitar Company's Southerner Mandocello. If I am to read this correctly, this is very reminiscent to the Loar era of Mandocello's.

I wish I there was more information on this era of Mandocello. I'm learning just like everyone else

**Jan Ellefsen** · Jan-11-2009, 12:18pm

Here is another picture of the yellow one, but I seem to remember that it was tuned as an octave, not a mandocello

**Bernie Daniel** · Jan-11-2009, 12:56pm

Keith Erickson: Just curious because the aura of Lloyd Loar has hit the Mandolin Café.....and especially after seeing that new find up in Kansas.

Keith -- just to set the record right the Lloyd Loar aura has dominated the Mandolin Cafe since day number one! Ane every day since!

I fact some might say the spirit of LL has overwhelmed the Cafe.

Dan I think Gibson made the investment in the scroll for the K4 because the mandolin was their big thing then -- by the time the Loar series began I think the handwritting was on the wall -- and mandolins were fast becoming a side line? I think you might have been implying that anyway.

Now mandolins are back -- it's time for a few K-5 scrolls please.

**Mike Black** · Jan-11-2009, 12:57pm

Originally Posted by danb

I saw one in an L5- they're frisbee or dinner plate sized!

A friend of mine here (who also conducts or mandolin orchestra) has a 1924 K4 with a Virzi and that thing is a cannon! And yes, the Virzi is about 8" diameter or more. It's the best sounding mandocello I've ever heard.

My theory: The only chance I've had to play a K5 was an Eastman K5, but I believe the reason the K5 probably didn't go over so well as the K4 is because the large bass sound that Mandocello players come to expect with oval-holed instruments would not be there compared to an f-hole instrument.

Adding the Virzi to the oval-holed instruments seems like the perfect combination. You get the warmth and bass of the oval-hole and the projection of an f-hole instrument with the Virzi.

Just my 2 cents.

**danb** · Jan-11-2009, 2:21pm

Mike, I'd love to know the serial of your friend's K4/Virzi if he'd like to share. We only know of a few of those.

I tend to agree with you that there is something cool about oval-holed mandocellos. I have very little comparison time on Loar K5s (ok none) to go on though. I've always thought I want a scroll mandocello, but I think a lot of that is "Wow look at that huge scroll that is so cool"