Celtic chord progressions

[DougC]

Kilkelly's book / CD has a lot of great examples that I transfer to mandolin. The audio part is just great to listen to as a regular music CD.

BTW I have no connection to this guy but it would be fun to meet him.

[John Bertotti]

Listening and comprehending what I am hearing otehr then a fun tune is the problem. Sometimes I can hear what's going on but can't transfer it to my hands. I asume it is experience related, so that is why I start threads like this. Every time I pick something up it helps in the long run. Thanks for all the replies everyone The knowledge base here on this board is incredible! That holds true to all the forums!

[John Bertotti]

So now I get the rhythm isn't cast in stone with many possible variations but it seems the melody is other then it has been said the accomplished player can embellish on the tune? Just how do they do this? How do they know what will be accepted and what won't?

[Bertram Henze]

How do they know what will be accepted and what won't?

Like in all music, it should fit harmonically (that is the hardest part, in fact). If you follow your own signature line (which I fully second, btw), the rest is just trial and error.

If you want to go a safer path, listen to what famous players do, get a picture of what is considered normal and stay in the ballpark.

Bertram

[John McGann]

... it has been said the accomplished player can embellish on the tune? Just how do they do this? How do they know what will be accepted and what won't?

Altering short sections (phrases) within a tune rather than 'blowing on the chord changes'.

How? Listen to Michael Coleman's "Bonnie Kate". Look at the basic version of the tune via the internet or O'Neills Music of Ireland, and listen to how he elevates a really plain and potentially repetitive tune into something more beautiful.

Coleman is an essential figure in Irish music. He does things that would shock a lot of people who read tunes from O'Neill's and go to sessions, faithfully playing the book versions with ornamentation, thinking they are 'being traditional', without having experienced much actual trad playing through their ears. These folks often feel quite certain about what should and shouldn't be done with 'the music', while in truth, they themselves are the cutting edge of avant garde (as in "avant garde a clue!")

I'd also point to my friend, accordionist Joe Derrane
as a great example of incredible melodic invention within the tradition.

So how do you know what to do? If you want to stay 'close to the shore', don't mess with the melodies until you know a LOT of tunes. By heart, not showing up at sessions with a music stand. In any idiom, the tunes themselves teach you vocabulary and syntax of the language.

Listen a lot to a variety of great players on a variety of instruments. Some are quite conservative, and play a tune 3x with little variation other than ornamentation, and make fantastic music...others will put in little variations that add spice.

Compare and contrast various players playing the same tune. 5 different players are bound to give you at least 5 new ways to play any given tune. Get to know why a player like James Kelly sounds different from Tommy Peoples or Frankie Gavin or Denis Murphy or Sean Keane. There is a lot of room for individuality in the tradition (more on this below).

These slow downer thingies are quite a boon. Check out how pipers ornament-even at half speed, they are doing very complex and fascinating things. These make being a musical Sherlock Holmes a lot less frustrating!

After all that, 'what will be accepted" is a funny concept. Both Michael Coleman and Joe Derrane have their detractors for 'being different'. The concept of tradition can be a bit of a Catch-22, where a tradition only accepts innovation after it has been deemed "traditional". So, things 'outside the Pale' are seen as a threat (how's that for irony, Irish historians?!?!)*

An Irish session, with everyone playing melody, wouldn't be a great venue to assert your individuality. If you are playing a concert for a room full of listeners at Willie Week in Clare, it's going to be different than a house concert in Au Claire, Wisconsin, in terms of 'critical listeners' who'll know what you are doing (or even be able to tell one tune from another, to be honest!)

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* The famous "pale" in Ireland during the 14th and 15th centuries was a region in a radius of twenty miles (32 km) around Dublin which the English gradually fortified against incursion from Gaelic Ireland.

The nobility living in the four "obedient counties" regarded themselves as ‘Pale dwellers’ up until the mid 17th century until the coming of Cromwell who showed no distinction between the old English of the Pale and the native Irish who dwelled outside the Pale. However, a class culture where Lords or Gentry of the Pale regarded themselves as superior continued into the modern period and the term ‘outside the Pale’ has persisted to this day as a derogatory term for inhabitants who live outside the greater Dublin area.

[Bertram Henze]

An example of different approaches on one tune can be found in this SAW group discussion. Compare the versions played on mandolin, OM and zouk with the Bothy Band's original that Kyle Baker provided.

Bertram

[Jim Nollman]

Great thread. We take it into another direction entirely. Quite perverse. A great learning experiencing. And great fun to all but the purists.

1. Playing just one song, we sometimes change a reel to a jig in mid-stream, then to a hornpipe, and finally to a waltz. Our favorite right now is starting St Ann's Reel per usual, then changing it to a jig, then to a waltz. By the way, it is a gorgeous waltz, especially the B part.

2. We've started playing some cajun material at our dances and concerts. In mandolin terms, it usually means cross picking the melody (or bass line) only on the D string while continually banging on the open A. This adds a kind of dronal quality, which works great with Cruel Willy or Reel St Antoine.
OK, now try that with Paddy on the Railroad. And once you get the idea, try it with something more complicated, like the jig: Haste to the Wedding.

And speaking of Haste to the Wedding. In our gigs, I often play the A part while the fiddle saws away on the B. And vice versa. Both parts have the same chord progression so it works well. And then try syncopating the vamp to a Bo Diddly beat. It boosts the energy so much, the dancers sometimes let out a huge whoop, when I start the vamp.

I know, I know. This is not an acceptable way of playing Celtic tunes. Then again, creative experimentation always implies a certain cluelessness.

[Bertram Henze]

In our gigs, I often play the A part while the fiddle saws away on the B. And vice versa. Both parts have the same chord progression so it works well.

Such feats are grand if rehearsed within a band, because everybody knows what's happening.
In a session, however, it might throw others off their track ("did I forget to repeat the A part?"). You know you've gone too far if you play on alone, everybody staring at you incredulously...
Happened to me.

In our sessions, the one who starts a tuneset automatically gets a canonical guideline role, determining what the next tune in the set is etc. If that's me, I stick to more or less official versions because I know everybody is following me. On the other hand, if some of the others start a set of their own and I am just a redundant accompanist, I feel free to be the rodeo clown.

Bertram

[Rob Gerety]

1. Playing just one song, we sometimes change a reel to a jig in mid-stream, then to a hornpipe, and finally to a waltz. Our favorite right now is starting St Ann's Reel per usual, then changing it to a jig, then to a waltz. By the way, it is a gorgeous waltz, especially the B part.

I am fairly new to this - I do play a bit of celtic stuff - both melodies on mando and back up guitar and I attend a fairly good local session as a listener on a regular basis. I also play a bit of contra dance music which is a very different but related thing.

I must say that while I think the rhythm changes sound like they would be a blast for the players and a great exercise I'm not so sure I would enjoy it as a listener. I think of this stuff as dance music. Rhythm changes mid tune don't work real well for dancing. But, as I said - I can totally see how much fun that would be for the players and I may try to get the folks in my little Thursday night jam to give it a try.