Tonerite questions

[Bill Van Liere]

I was going to contact Teri directly but I think others might also be interested.

1. From the pictures the Toneright looks mando specific. Can this same (Tonerite for Mandolin) device be used to any effect on guitars also?

2. If the answer is no; are there any plans to build a model that is interchangable between the two?

[Amandalyn]

Yes Bill, the Guitar model is available, as well as Violin, Viola, Cello,Bass.
When I found out about the Tonerite for violins, that's when I started working with the inventor on developing the mandolin model. If you will contact me directly I can share some quotes with you on users of the guitar model. (probablynot mandoliny enough for here, although the physics are the same). I can say luthier Micheal Lewis has tried the mandolin model with positive results,and is currently trying the guitar model on his instruments.
Teri
info@musicgrowshere.com

[John Flynn]

I just submitted some questions to Tonerite re: the mandolin model. The questions were:
1. Does this device vary its amplitude and frequency?
2. If so, what are the ranges?
3. Also, if so, what is the cycle, meaning how long does it take to run through all variations?
4. Re: question #1, if not, how does it open up all frequencies on the instrument?
5. How long can the device be safely left in operation on an instrument?

The reply to my questions was quick, but not completely satisfactory, IMHO:

"We have researched the play-in process extensively and we focus on the physics of playing your instrument as well as the interaction between nodes. It is important to not just focus on the frequencies from an input/output relationship but also the intermodulation / summing / destructive interference that is caused by nodes being excited at different frequencies along the instrument. Each type of instrument has their own important factors to consider and we go through a lot of variations and lessons to make sure each ToneRite is tailored to it's specific instrument. Most users keep the ToneRite on their instrument whenever they are not playing it. In the four years of testing we have not seen an instrument have "too much" or be "played out". In fact, current research shows that gentle playing of an instrument eases the natural tensions of the wood and prevent cracks and strain on it. "

I think he danced around question 1, so I will take that as a "no," making 2 and 3 moot. I thought he answered 4 with a lot of technical jargon. I have to wonder if that is just being precise, or an attempt at obfuscation. It would be great to have some of our acoustic experts here translate/critique.

I am hoping this device has merit. I would be interested in it if it does. But I need some more information and testimonials before my "nodes get excited" enough to buy one!

[Amandalyn]

I will see if I can get more technical information for you. That's not my genre, I helped in other design aspects of the product design. Let me talk to the inventor and see if I can get some specs for you. I do know he is not apt to give out too much technical info because of his patent pending. We are open to forwarding a trial model to a tester who would be a good acoustic evaluator. So far we have done testing with luthiers and musicians alike. As far as it being left on the instrument, I have left mine on overnight, and for hours when not a home, with no problems, the inventor leaves his on his cello all the time when not played.
Teri
info@musicgrowshere.com

[Rick Turner]

I have to say that patent pending is no reason not to disclose if you are selling the products. If the units are available, then they can be easily "reverse engineered", and the knowledge you're trying to protect will become quickly known. I'd suggest that you either not sell units until you're ready to disclose, or go ahead and disclose now because you're not going to be able to control disclosure once these things get into the hands of anyone who knows a bit about audio.

I assume you've got a variable frequency vibrator in there. The parameters that could be tweaked would be frequency and amplitude and maybe the direction of the force. It's not rocket surgery or brain science!

And this is me, a believer in the concept here...

[Amandalyn]

As I said I'm not a tech head - my comment about patents was just a gut feeling.

[Michael Lewis]

Hi folks, maybe I can offer a little information here. I have used the units on both mandolins and guitars with noticeable results. You can vary the amplitude but not the frequency, but that doesn't seem to make much difference in the results. The frequency is below any fretted note that the instrument would make, and it works. What more do you need to know?

I first tried the unit on a mandolin that had been in a case for nearly a year, dead strings and all. Actually, the A strings sounded fairly good before I started. I left the unit on overnight at full throttle, which is still pretty gentle, and in the morning the instrument sounded great on all strings. This instrument had never sounded so good with new strings, but was even, warm, rich, loud, clear, etc. I immediately saw that the concept worked better than I expected.

Now, a word of caution, not all instruments will respond equally. I think that much like with the ToneGard, some instruments will be more effected and some less. Perhaps it just takes more time for some instruments, I really don't know yet, as this is still pretty hew to me.

You wedge the bars on the underside of the unit between strings, that is what holds it on. Slide it back to the bridge and plug it in. It will hum at a low frequency and work on your instrument while you go do something else, like sleep or work.

Possibly there could be some improvements with a frequency control, but as far as I can see it works well the way it is. It ain't broke, so don't fix it.

I don't think the unit needs to be on an instrument very frequently, just enough to keep it awake. If you know you are going to a jam or a gig you might buzz it for an hour or two beforehand. My assessment might change over time if I find some instruments require more buzzing time than others, but so far I think the unit is a success.

no financial interest here, just interest, and it IS interesting.

[Rick Turner]

I'm guessing the frequency is 60 Hz...line frequency, and yes, well below the lowest note on a mandolin. I'm going to try plugging one of my ConAire vibrators into the speaker output of an amplifier to see what happens...

You could drive one of these suckers with recordings of your favorite music... Yes, you could have Bill wake up your mandolin...

[John Flynn]

Michael Lewis said, "The frequency is below any fretted note that the instrument would make, and it works. What more do you need to know?"

Michael, If you say it works, I believe that. Your reputation precedes you. But what more I want to know is what makes it worth $295. If it is just a simple 60 Hz vibrator, I could do as well to epoxy a drug store vibrator attachment to a home-made equivalent of a Weber Wood Nymph and have the same thing for ten cents on the dollar. But if they have some science behind their product that makes it worth $295, I'd just like to know what that science is, get some discussion of it here and if it makes sense to me, I'll spend the extra money. But if a vendor invites questions on their website, I ask a simple question and they dance around the answer, I get suspicious and I save my money.

[greg_tsam]

But if a vendor invites questions on their website, I ask a simple question and they dance around the answer, I get suspicious and I save my money.

+1

[Bill Van Liere]

+2

[Amandalyn]

John, the advantage of the Tonerite over a dime store vibrator rig is it is designed specifically to fit each instrument IE: mandolin model, guitar model, etc. The strings are vibrated which transfers to the bridge, and whole body of the mandolin. You can feel all parts of the instrument resonating, yet is gentle. I am trying to get the guys at Tonerite to respond here and answer some of your technical questions.
Teri LaMarco

[foldedpath]

Hi folks, maybe I can offer a little information here. I have used the units on both mandolins and guitars with noticeable results.

I respect the experience and opinions of the notable builders here, but 'ya know... a few good before-and-after recordings, under carefully controlled and repeatable conditions, released without identifying which file was which... would save a ton of discussion on forums like this one. And maybe even convince a few of us old crusty skeptics.

[Amandalyn]

I can do a recording test. Give me a couple of days, I'll let one of my mandolins sit so it's gone asleep. What do you suggest for "controlled conditions"? Also, as suggested a trial model is available to a reputable tester. I was thinking Dr. Cohen or Roger S.
Teri LaMarco

[Rick Turner]

One of the things I've noticed about the phenomenon of guitars "opening up" is that a lot of it is how the instrument feels to play. There's an ease that comes that makes the instrument more of a joy to play. I don't know whether this translates to recording. I do believe that it is true, whether or not it can be "proven". All of the good musicians I know and do work for believe this as well. A nice played in instrument practically plays itself...

[Amandalyn]

Ok, I relayed your concerns to Ryan of Tonerite and here is his response:

"There are a lot of factors in the design of the ToneRite other then the frequency input/output relationship. It is more than what frequency you put into the instrument, how you get the frequency in and using the most efficient means possible is extremely important. Also, factors such as providing a device that can support a lifetime of operation, manageable size, and near-silent operation are not trivial tasks. People tend to get caught up in the 'what frequencies are you using questions' and honestly our research started in that same direction due to papers from Reumont, Strobel, etc. We have found that these factors are not the most important when trying to design a device to accelerate the play-in process. We have found that an efficient mechanical connection, gentle vibration, and quality contact with the bridge are significantly more important. Also, you need to do this in a safe and gentle manner. I.E. The ToneRite is specifically made so that it falling from the instrument is very unlikely and if it did it would not cause damage, also due to the fact that the ToneRite does not touch the varnish long term use does not cause a 'weraing out' of a certain spot.


All in all, what I was trying to explain to John in that focusing on the frequency I/O (transfer function) of an instrument is not the only factor, and in fact is not the most important. 3-D modeling of an acoustic generator such as a mandolin is a VERY difficult problem, not only does the model have to be accurate, but accounting for the random and imperfect nature of wood is tough. The interference caused by the waves coming from the instrument and the surrounding space is also a large factor. Next is the quantification of sound (a topic which I will avoid). Anyways, to completely scientifically design a product such as the ToneRite would be nearly impossible.


As for cost, we are working hard to bring the cost down. We understand this is expensive and we are currently manufacturing these by hand in house and are very backordered due to the incredible response we have had from the violin, viola, cello community. In mid-2009 we will be manufacturing some parts out of house that will make these much easier to produce and the cost will reflect that. As you have found, entering a new market (such as the mandolin) results in difficult questions and we welcome them, but we want people to HEAR the difference. You will soon notice, people that have used the ToneRite KNOW it works and don't end up posting very frequently on forums, but people that have not used it and doubt it do. If you want a closed mathematical solution to the play-in process it is just not going to happen.


A few people have discussed testing set-ups for an apples-to-apples test. We are more then willing to do this! The issues with things like acoustic instruments is that the test set-up influences the results. Mics/room dryness/wetness, instrument quality, etc are factors that need to be de-embedded from the test. If someone thinks they have a perfect set-up PLEASE let us know and we will visit and prove our results. We have done a lot of testing with a lot of test set-ups that shows this works, but you will find as soon as you post/mention them you will have more questions/"nay-sayers" then you did before.


You can post this on the forum if you would like, but we encourage questions via phone or e-mail directly to us. People can decide if/how/when the want to try this and if it "works" or not. We are not trying to sell a 'gimmick' or rip people off. We are more then happy to give a 100% refund to anyone that thinks this is a gimmick and will pay for shipping back. We love music and like to think that maybe we can play a small part in advancing the science/sound of modern instruments. When we started discovering the results we could get, we wanted to share the same joy that we got from the incredible enhancements our instruments made. We all had comfortable engineering jobs that we have quit to try and put our passion for music and engineering together, regardless of the financial gain/loss.


Again, I apologize to John if I was unclear in my response, I hope this helps."

Ryan S. Frankel

ToneRite, Inc.
www.tonerite.com
110 SE 1st Street
4th Floor, Suite 320
Gainesville, FL 32601
O: (352) 214-2760
C: (352) 262-4434
E: ryan.frankel@tonerite.com

[foldedpath]

One of the things I've noticed about the phenomenon of guitars "opening up" is that a lot of it is how the instrument feels to play. There's an ease that comes that makes the instrument more of a joy to play.

Sure, I've felt that myself with various instruments over time. I think most of us notice it. I just don't know how much of that is due to the way I might have improved as a player over the years, and learned how to "grow into" the instrument. Also, like most players I fuss with strings, setup, and picks to find what brings out the best tone. That process can take years. So if I think that an instrument is sounding better after 5 or 10 years, am I hearing all these factors? Or am I hearing some other physical process in the wood that's independent of these things?

Even in the short term; this idea that instruments "go to sleep" over fairly short periods of time if they're not constantly played.... is that actually what's happening? Or does it take a few minutes or hours of playing to remember what kind of attack and playing style an instrument needs, when you haven't touched it for a month? Is it the instrument warming up, or the player?

There may also be something going on with pure vibration in the wood. But far too little attention is paid to these other factors (IMO), which tend to complicate the picture, and make one suspicious of anecdotal claims that the only factor in break-in is vibration that can be applied by an external gadget.

[Cheryl Watson]

Mandolins definitely "Go to sleep" from my experience; some more so than others and it may take a week or in some cases only a few days for an instrument to become less responsive and lose its fullness and depth of tone.

I read an article a while back that I wish I could now find so that I could quote it verbatim...but it was about a theory stated by a luthier that the wood molecules in a musical instrument loosen up with vibration from playing and conversely, the molecules can settle if the instrument goes unplayed for a while which causes the wood to be physically less responsive.

All of us know that a good player who is warmed up can pull the tone out of his or her instrument better than when not warmed up. At one time I believed that this was the only reason why instruments seemed to "go to sleep" when it was the player who was not warmed up yet. I still believe that this is part of the equation but not the only reason why an instrument sounds better when it has been played.

So a few years back, I tested this theory by letting mandolin A sit in its case for a week while I played only mandolin B for at least an hour a day for a whole week. Then, with my hands warmed up after about a half an hour of play on mandolin B, I pulled mandolin A out of its case and played it. It definitely lacked the response and fullness and depth that I knew it to have. I picked up mandolin B again and it was honking--went directly back to mandolin A and it took over a half an hour of hard play to have the response and tone start to come back and even longer to bring it all the way back again. So I concluded that since my hands were warmed up and I was coaxing the tone quite easily out of mandolin B, that mandolin A had indeed gone to sleep.

It was not a scientific or mathematical experiment but I think that it was a "real life" practical experiment.

Cheryl

[Michael Lewis]

I don't know how to measure the frequency of the Tonerite, but it sounds slower than 60 cycle hum. The vibration is more of a throbbing than a buzz, and it can make the instrument generate sound a bit as it does it's work , especially if it is allowed to rattle anything like a cord or touch the bridge. At MAX setting it produces a noticeable hum from an instrument, but lower settings are less noticeable.

Since I can't see the wood cells or the vibration waves to understand what exactly happens in this process I can't comment on the science involved, but I can hear the results. My guess is that it causes the all the parts to "learn" to move together more efficiently. Maybe Dr. Cohen could offer some light in this area.

[John Malayter]

Can we rent them????

$300 is a bundle, Siminoff charges $125 I think?? and he states the effects on the instrument are permanent but not all instruments respond the same. When I spoke with him, he was open ended on the timeframe as it depends on the instrument some take longer, which he will do if he deems necessary.

I too am interested in this product, as stated earlier it seems with a little ingenuity and elbow grease you could put one together at home.

I'll gamble the $125 and send mine to Roger then go to the drug store and buy some aspirin!

[Bill Van Liere]

Instuments going to sleep: I am starting to believe this is possible. Like is so often stated in these opening up discussions; "I can't prove it but I can hear it." I have a well played in 46 D-18 that the sound just jumps out of. About a year back I acquired a really sweet Bourgeois to carry about and leave the old Martin at home. The instrument has been much less played for about a year now, poor old guy. The tone on the 18 seems thinned down and less full, has lost ground with the others; 79 HD-28, 68 O-16NY and the Bourgeois which is improving as expected. The humidity is the same for all the instruments, so I don't think it is a winter time/low humidity, thin tone issue which can be common at my latitude, think winter heaters. I think it has to do with not being played as much.

I am primarily a Mandolin player with no plans to sell any guitars. I am very intersted in the concept of exciting an instrument at my discression as opposed to shipping it away to have this done.

Rental: not a bad idea for a music shop.

[MikeEdgerton]

Change the strings on the Martin, it will open up right away.

[Amandalyn]

The advantage of the Tonerite is you don't have to send your instrument away, have you considered the total cost with shipping? With the Tonerite you have it for continuous or as needed use. As far as the science- has Siminoff's method been proven to last permanetly? I can't imagine any instrument not played for awhile that doesn't lose tone.
Here's a quote on a violin model:
"In my new violin, the TOnerite has greatly improved the response in all strings and somehow turned the sound somehow sweeter after one night"
Jose Belmonte
Professor of Violin
Seville Conservatory

[Bill Van Liere]

A good suggetion Mike. The strings are in good shape though.

[D C Blood]

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, so I'll ask what might seem like a "dumb" question...Would there be any remote kind of chance that a constant vibration on a mando (or other instrument) might cause some glued pieces (such as tone bars or bracing) to loosen???