Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

[Doug Hoople]

Help me out Doug. What key is it in and why?

Sorry, Don, I guess it reads like I'm coming down hard on you. I didn't mean it as hard as it reads.

And actually, you're right to point out that plain old V chords are common in both mixolydian and aeolian tunes, which is kind of what Fux talked about, too, although I'm still pretty sure that he would have been shocked at the way they play out here in all of their glorious 20th century power chord parallelism.

But sorry, I digress. The key for Black Clouds... it's obviously some kind of A major.

Is it A mixolydian (A major with a flatted 7th) or A Ionian (the true A major)?

The simple answer to that question is, "What key is Red-Haired Boy in?"

And the reason I say that is that the G chord does exactly the same thing in Red-Haired Boy as it does in Black Clouds...

Take the beginning of the B section, right after the A section finishes on the A chord:

G-D-A

And that's the "double-plagal" effect that I was talking about earlier, where the G is acting as a temporary IV chord to the D, and the D is the actual IV chord in key of A (as a reminder of the sound of the plagal cadence, it's the sound of the "Amen" at the end of most church hymns).

But wait... it also does the G chord as a substitute dominant (substitute V chord, that is), too (where it goes A-G-A). The whole B section goes:

G-D-A-G-A-D-A-E-A

Notice finally that after all those G chords, the section cadences with the E chord as a true V chord, including the G#

So the B section in "Red-Haired Boy" contains all the elements of this same mix that we have in "Black Clouds."

I suppose we could put it to a vote... is it A major or A mixolydian or both?

BTW, For an idea of how Fux viewed counterpoint, it's really instructive to listen to anything (mostly choral) by Tomas Luis de Victoria. Most people talk about Palestrina, but I think Victoria represents the height of 'perfect' counterpoint better than anyone (Bach included), at least the counterpoint that Fux was writing about.

[Don Julin]

No problem Doug, I view this type of discussion as good clean fun. Sometime it gets a little hot but it is a big topic and many viewpoints. I have spent about 30 years studying music (including Berklee) and still learn something new every time I play a song. I believe that the Red Haired Boy is in A mixolidian but if anyone else can hear it another way that is cool by me. I play mostly jazz for a living so the idea is to recognize then re-invent the harmony so I guess that makes me a musical liberal.

Yet another way to think about this tune in a more modern "rock" type of style is to think of the KEY based on a pentatonic scale. By using a major chord for each note of the pentatonic scale you can come up with many interesting and pleasing chord progressions that do not fit into any traditional key. Many rock artist including Neil Young, Lynard Skynard, David Bowie, Grateful Dead, Aerosmith, and even our beloved David Grisman have written tunes that seem to follow this approach. I do not think these composers were thinking of plagal cadences. Although maybe they were drawing on music they heard in church as a kid without even knowing it. This pentatonic rock type of harmony may be more in the style that this piece was constructed.

In that case we might say that the key was loosely a E minor pentatonic scale. (EGABD)

No need for a vote because there is enough room for everyone. In the hands of the right person I am sure we all could hear things that we though not possible sounding beautiful.

For a real challenge of "what key is this in" I have been looking at the music of Wayne Shorter, Bill Evans and Hermeto Pascoal.

Thanks for your input Doug.

[Doug Hoople]

Yet another way to think about this tune in a more modern "rock" type of style is to think of the KEY based on a pentatonic scale. By using a major chord for each note of the pentatonic scale you can come up with many interesting and pleasing chord progressions that do not fit into any traditional key. Many rock artist including Neil Young, Lynard Skynard, David Bowie, Grateful Dead, Aerosmith, and even our beloved David Grisman have written tunes that seem to follow this approach. I do not think these composers were thinking of plagal cadences. Although maybe they were drawing on music they heard in church as a kid without even knowing it. This pentatonic rock type of harmony may be more in the style that this piece was constructed

That's actually sort of what I had in mind when I filed the Fux protest... that these guys probably came up with their progressions because they sounded good and were just a little off the I-IV-V center, not that they were leading straight out from perfectly absorbed Fux.

You've probably put your finger on how the progression came to be, Don, with the major-chords-on-a-pentatonic-scale construction. It makes a lot of sense. It would certainly go a long way toward explaining how an E chord gets into an A mixolydian song.

I'd also agree that it's unlikely that anyone was thinking "double-plagal" when they stumbled onto the progressions, but that's still how it sounds to me. Saying "double-plagal" helps me (at least) to envision functionally what's going on, and makes it easier to recognize it when it turns up later. It also makes it a little easier to conjure when the time comes to attempt writing something that might work the same way.

When you stumble onto a cool progression, you often don't know why it's cool, only that it's cool. It's later on that you find words to describe what's going on.

I mean, I'd sort of like to know how David Grisman thought up all the cool (but still perfectly inevitable) twists that he worked into 'Dawg's Waltz.' Great gospel progressions, but was that what he was consciously thinking, or did he just play them and say 'Cool!' ??

[Jim Broyles]

Sounds to me like it's in A major, and that it's deliberately made to sound like it's mixolydian without really being mixolydian.

The G chord, then, is not really a replacement for the V chord, as it normally would in A mixolydian. It's more like a IV of IV chord (G resolving to D), kind of a double plagal cadence, G to D To A (the plagal cadence is generally defined as a IV-I). Or at least that's how it sounds to me.

And then there's a proper V chord in the form of the E. The G# in the E chord really pops out and sounds almost out of key, so maybe it's A mixolydian after all!

The thing that teases us about this tune is that it references mixolydian conventions (the G chord as a substitute dominant) while it's really doing its plagal thing, but then tosses in a full-fledged V chord.

They're deliberately trying to keep us a little off balance. Works nicely, doesn't it?

I don't know, but I'll bet the Incident didn't put that much thought into it.

[Doug Hoople]

I don't know, but I'll bet the Incident didn't put that much thought into it.

Agreed. I definitely over-geeked this one.

They probably wrote it just after jamming out on 'Red-Haired Boy.'

[groveland]

Hello!

I am learning to play a song that has the following progression:

verse:
A - A - G - E
A - D - G - E

chorus:
G - D - A
G - D - E

I'm just curious, but what key would this be? It doesn't seem to fit into any.

The clip at the site above is going

chorus (pattern repeats):
||: G D | A A |
| G D | E E |
| G D | A A |
| G C | E E :||

verse:
|| A | A | A | G D |
| A | A | G D | E | E ||

Having heard the clip now, the verse is in the key signature of D major(A/G/D/A), tonal center A, so that is A mixolydian. The placement of the D and E chords are really kindof a brief modulation. The E is the V7 of the A, so for that moment you're definitely in E mixolydian, quickly resolving back to the A if I can predict (the clip runs out). Hope I expressed that okay.

Chorus seems to be all over the map. There's a C chord in there. too.

[Doug Hoople]

Having heard the clip now, the verse is in the key signature of D major(A/G/D/A), tonal center A, so that is A mixolydian. The placement of the D and E chords are really kindof a brief modulation. The E is the V7 of the A, so for that moment you're definitely in E mixolydian, quickly resolving back to the A if I can predict (the clip runs out). Hope I expressed that okay.

Chorus seems to be all over the map. There's a C chord in there. too.

I managed to listen to a more extended version, and it's mostly conventional A mixolydian with tail-end E dominants, pretty conventional, "Red-Haired Boy" style. I think the clip picked up the most out-there bit, and it's harder with just that to pin down the key.

[AllWhoYonder]

Here's another clip from a live show if it helps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKFoK6pDeUg

[ApK]

| A | A | G D | E | E ||

By a remarkable coincidence, that's also what most of us are saying, while pulling our hair, trying to understand this thread:

AAGD!!! EE!!!!

So, is the short answer "A mixolydian, plus some stuff from outside the key?"

[John McGann]

At least we don't all agree

I think that's not a bad thing.

Duke Ellington: "If it sounds good, it is good".

Sonny Boy Williamson: "Call it yo' mammy if you want to!"

I like Old Joe Clark with no E chord and stick to G naturals in the melody too. Different strokes.

Another amazing contrapunter from the old timey school is Gesualdo, especially the 5th and 6th books of madrigals...

He may well have been thinking "ANALYZE THIS!!!" way before DeNiro!

[ApK]

At least we don't all agree

I think that's not a bad thing.

Seriously, things like this are why several people can sit around jamming and improvising pleasantly around a familiar tune in A mixolydian, then another person can come in, do something unexpected and stunningly original, because they were hearing it in some variant of E....

I like Old Joe Clark with no E chord and stick to G naturals in the melody too. Different strokes.

Side question: at what point does stuff like that stop being 'the folk process' and start being a different song?

I've wondered if the reason sometimes we have the same title for two entirely different songs is not because two people happened to think of the same title, but
because someone changed the lyrics, then the chords, then the melody, then the rhythm....

Hey...that's the Ship of Theseus paradox!

ApK

[John Ritchhart]

I agree with Howard Johnson...

[Doug Hoople]

Another amazing contrapunter from the old timey school is Gesualdo, especially the 5th and 6th books of madrigals...

He may well have been thinking "ANALYZE THIS!!!" way before DeNiro!

Yeah, the difference between Victoria and Gesualdo is that Victoria did everything by the book and he kept it 'in the box.' If you weren't paying attention, you might stifle a yawn and not even notice the exquisitely perfect, but still academically correct, counterpoint technique. A little like Mozart, actually, where you have to pay attention to realize that he's not just a simple-minded bore.

Gesualdo, on the other hand, in his nuttier moments, was totally out of the box, reaching for shock effect. When we listen to them both today, the modern ear is drawn toward Gesualdo because of his novelty. Entertaining, wild, and very modern. But maybe not the most representative example of what Fux had in mind.

Sorry, we've gotten all the way here, so must put in the required mention of Gesualdo's tendency toward provocation and inflamed passions: he did murder his wife and her lover, didn't he?

Sorry, I guess this is a little OT. Go to sleep a geek, wake up a geek!

[Bob Wiegers]

based on the clip, I'd say it's definitely in the key of Phish. no question.

[greg_tsam]

My brain just melted..

[mandozilla]

I know, let's ask a b***o player!

[mandolirius]

I wonder if anyone thinks "what key is this in" deserves a one-letter answer. As far as I know, there is no *key* known as E mixolydian. Scales, modes...sure. But a key is a key is a key, is is not?

[ApK]

I wonder if anyone thinks "what key is this in" deserves a one-letter answer. As far as I know, there is no *key* known as E mixolydian. Scales, modes...sure. But a key is a key is a key, is is not?

No, there are couple definitions of 'key.'

Some define 'key' in terms of the major/minor system only.
Even in that realm, some people would argue that there are only 12 key signatures, and therefore only 12 keys, as you say.
Others include 24 major and minor keys in the definition.

Others define 'key' as "The scale a piece of music is based on" and since modes are scales (by most accepted definitions of those terms...) they count, too.

I find the latter definition more useful, personally, as it gives more useful information.

ApK

[Don Stiernberg]

so let's say you're playing "Love Come Home" by Bill Monroe:
A G
As you read this letter that I write to you
D A
Sweetheart, I hope you understand......and so on.
Isn't that the key of A? Doesn't the S.C. Incident tune have mostly those type of changes? Wouldn't it also be in A?
I think part of the semantics at play here would be that in bluegrass, country, and rock progressions, dominant chords are not always voiced, played, or written as 7th chords. For instance the E chord in Love Come Home, while not played as E7th, still fullfills the dominant function, still works as a V chord in the key of A. The progression the original poster inquired about strikes me the same way. I think it's fairly common in these styles to have a I-IV-V progression(A,D,E) which also includes the bVII chord bewtween the I and IV. Another example I use in workshops frequently is John Prine's "Angel From Montgomery"...
Let's not forget that tunes or progressions can travel through a tonal center or two or three before they end--they don't have to be all in one key. For instance, what key is "Stella By Starlight" in?Most would say Bb, but it travels through practically all the keys...
These questions and observations are submitted respectfully and I eagerly await further insight into this fascinating study.

[Don Stiernberg]

in the post above, the G chord hits with the word "you, the return to A comes with "understand". Something happened when I hit the button...

[pickloser]

Something happened when I hit the button...

Great title for a song, Don.

[EdSherry]

The question "what key is it in?" presupposes that the song is in a single key. Many songs aren't. Lots of jazz tunes can best be thought of as modulating through a number of different keys. As Prof. McGann says, "This progression doesn't fit into any one key."

I suspect you need to know the melody, not just the chord progression, in order to get a better understanding of the melody's tonal center (if any).

[groveland]

I wonder if anyone thinks "what key is this in" deserves a one-letter answer. As far as I know, there is no *key* known as E mixolydian. Scales, modes...sure. But a key is a key is a key, is is not?

...the verse is in the key signature of D major... tonal center A, so that is A mixolydian.

I don't think there's a one letter answer to that - I mean it's at least major or minor... When we don't specify it's generally accepted that we mean major, but...

If someone said "it's in the key of 2 sharps" I don't jump to the conclusion that the tonal center is D, necessarily. (As in D major/ionian.) Or even B (as in B minor/aeolian). By the same token it could be A (as in A mixolydian). They all share that same key signature, so I'd want to look at the tune more closely.

On the other hand, some folks will put 3 sharps in the key signature to identify an A tonal center, and then throw in the accidental (G natural) to make it A mixolydian. But if you have a G natural throughout, you're effectively back to 2 sharps. Which is D major. (Or B minor. )

I think there's a lot to be said for both approaches. But I am not comfortable with assuming the term "key" always means "tonal center". I'm just a modal sort of guy.

[Doug Hoople]

In 99% of the cases, you can look for two chords, the tonic and the dominant. Once you've identified them, you can determine the key.

In 'Black Clouds,' it's pretty clear that the E chord acts as a dominant (V chord), and that it resolves to the A chord, which acts as the tonic. There are funny things that happen with the G and the D chords, but there's a sense that when you hit the E, you've hit that point that wants to 'go home,' and 'home' is the A chord.

Since the whole song features G naturals except when it gets to the E chord, and since the E chord generally only comes at the tail end of phrases and sections, it's natural (pun intended) to think that G natural is part of the scale, and the G# that is the third in the E chord is kind of an exception.

So, it's a scale that's based on the notes of the D major scale (C# and F#), but the tonic is an A chord... voila, the key of the song is A mixolydian (the major scale, but with a flatted 7th).

Like I said, the tonic and dominant chords can be spotted in 99% of songs.

But wait, sometimes the dominant isn't the V chord, sometimes it's a substitute. So when you play A-G-A, the G is a substitute for the dominant. It's a restless chord that aches to go home to the A chord. Try it. Try vamping on A-G-A-G-A-G-A, and try to stop on the G chord. It will feel unfinished. Then do it again, and stop on the A. It will feel finished.

Or, also in key of A, when you play a Bb7#11, that's the tritone substitution for an E7 chord (more precisely, an E7#5), and the E7 chord, of course, is the dominant to the A.

And that's kind of the definition of a dominant chord... it's restless, unstable, and it wants to go somewhere else. The somewhere else that it wants to go to is generally the tonic.

And that's the definition of the tonic. It's the home that a dominant chord is aching to go to. Yeah, yeah, I know, that's circular. But the tonic DOES feel like home. You can finish a phrase on the tonic, and you don't feel like you really need to go anywhere else.

Finally, there is the 1% of pieces that don't have a key center, or where the key center could be one thing or another. Joni Mitchell was famous for chord voicings that were so ambiguous that you couldn't tell which of two or three roots would be right. And there are any number of modal pieces where the key center is deliberately obscure. And, of course, there's Arnold Schoenberg, who had to leave Austria and become a school teacher in California because he invented a system for rigorously preventing the establishment of a tonal center (I'm joking here, of course, but he did leave Austria to become a university professor in California).

But those are the distinct minority. A key is almost always discernible in a piece. Even, as Don says, when a piece works through a variety of key centers, it usually does so in reference to the key of the tune as a whole.

So look for those two chords, the dominant and the tonic. If you can spot those, you're a long way to figuring out what key a tune is in.

[groveland]

But wait, sometimes the dominant isn't the V chord, sometimes it's a substitute. So when you play A-G-A, the G is a substitute for the dominant...

Except when the tune is written in Fifth Mode of D melodic minor (A 'Fifth Mode'), where they're the I7 and bVII7. Makes a great vamp. But A7 to Gma7 sounds dandy vamping, too, so the A is really the dominant and it's really the V7 and IV of D major. In this A G A... example I think the G is only the dominant if you expect it to be.

Yes, I'm being a wise guy.

I do get what you're saying.

Plus, if you know the genre or composer, you can make some good guesses about the function the chords perform. Plus, the bigger the chord, the less ambiguity. If provided triads only, like the example, any given tune can mean a lot of different things. Add some blue notes, and who knows where you end up.