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Thread: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

  1. #51
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    So, after 2 pages of analyzing and theorizing, I look back at the OP and I'm thinking the real question is, "What do I play over this kind of thing?"

    To sum it all up, I'd probably roughly play an A blues on the verse and chorus, except on the E where I would play E mixolydian. What I mean by A blues is A mixolydian occasionally flatting the 3rd. You'll just hear when the 3rd should go flat. (Like on the C chord, sometimes on the G and D.)

    A mixolydian is the notes of the D major scale.
    E mixolydian is the notes of the A major scale.

  2. #52
    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    A dom7 doesn't always function as a V chord, though, so for key spotting looking at the dom 7 doesn't always yield the answer to "what key"- like Donny mentions in "Stella By Starlight", this would be typical jazz harmonic analysis:

    Em7b5 A7b9- ("key" of) D harmonic minor (yes it's not a 'key' as in 'key signature', you can call it a scale or yo momma, it's the tonality from which the chords are derived) but it doesn't resolve to Dm, it goes to:

    Cm7 F7- (key of) Bbmaj

    Fm7 Bb7- (key of) Ebmaj

    Ebmaj7 Ab7 Bbmaj7 (!) I'd say the Ab7 is bVII in the modality (modal interchange) of Eb melodic minor, jumping to the key of Bb (sounds like home base) for the Bbmaj7 chord.

    The Ab7 isn't the V of Db in this case (at least functionally)... and you won't find much in Fux or any standard early counterpoint/harmony tomes about this kind of thing...but folks like M. Ravel and C. Debussy were doing it over thar in Frayance decades before the Tin Pan Alley/ Broadway composers 'borrowed' it...those guys were BIG influences on the early jazz players from Tatum to Bix on down...once you hit Stravinsky you start getting polytonality, Bartok polymodality, and the idea of key centers really gets left behind...

    See, ask a simple question, get a simple answer
    Last edited by John McGann; Jan-23-2009 at 9:23pm.

  3. #53
    Registered User Doug Hoople's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Quote Originally Posted by groveland View Post
    Except when the tune is written in Fifth Mode of D melodic minor (A 'Fifth Mode'), where they're the I7 and bVII7. Makes a great vamp. But A7 to Gma7 sounds dandy vamping, too, so the A is really the dominant and it's really the V7 and IV of D major. In this A G A... example I think the G is only the dominant if you expect it to be.

    Yes, I'm being a wise guy.

    I do get what you're saying.
    Well, I did say 99% of the time, didn't I? What % of 1% make up the number of tunes written in Mix-Flat6 mode?

    Also, I'd have to say that the bVIIma7 chord in the I7-bVIIma7-I7 vamp in Mix-Flat6 probably doesn't really qualify as a substitute dominant, and that's because all the voices leading out of the bVIIma7 just don't seem to ache to resolve to the I7.

    And the I7 chord probably makes a weak tonic, too, so the whole business works to defy the normal dynamics of tonic-dominant that help us identify key center in the 99% cases.

    But that's kind of what you're getting at, isn't it?

    Cool vamp, regardless of how defiantly ambiguous it is! Thanks.
    Doug Hoople
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  4. #54
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Hoople View Post
    Well, I did say 99% of the time, didn't I? What % of 1% make up the number of tunes written in Mix-Flat6 mode?

    Also, I'd have to say that the bVIIma7 chord in the I7-bVIIma7-I7 vamp in Mix-Flat6 probably doesn't really qualify as a substitute dominant, and that's because all the voices leading out of the bVIIma7 just don't seem to ache to resolve to the I7.

    And the I7 chord probably makes a weak tonic, too, so the whole business works to defy the normal dynamics of tonic-dominant that help us identify key center in the 99% cases.

    But that's kind of what you're getting at, isn't it?

    Cool vamp, regardless of how defiantly ambiguous it is! Thanks.
    There are two adjacent dom7's in melodic minor's Fifth Mode - That's a I7 and a bVII7, not bVIIma7. (The V7 and IV7 of melodic minor, right?) I think you lost me on this one.

    I do get your point - And the "normal dynamics" is the first thing we look for. Unless there's a good reason to expect something obscure, it would be crazy to look for it. Crazy unless we're on the Theory, Tips and Tricks board, of course.

  5. #55
    Registered User Doug Hoople's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Quote Originally Posted by John McGann View Post
    A dom7 doesn't always function as a V chord, though, so for key spotting looking at the dom 7 doesn't always yield the answer to "what key"- like Donny mentions in "Stella By Starlight", this would be typical jazz harmonic analysis:
    But 'Stella By Starlight' relies totally on the dominant-tonic for its effect, and Victor Young was working hard to keep the key center moving, all the while working a variety of V-I and ii-V-I relationships.

    You can take the sequence

    Em7b5-A7b9-Cm7-F7-Fm7-Bb7-Ebma7-Ab7-Bbma7

    and simplify it so...

    C9-C7b9-F7-Bbma7

    Playing it this way, you can see the bones of the progression, and you can hear the essential elements of the harmonic movement. C9 and C7b9 are synonymous with Em7b5 and A7b9. When represented this way, suddenly Em7b5-A7b9-Cm7-F7 doesn't seem particularly far-fetched.

    What you get is a nice voice line of D-C#-C-Bb in the upper voice and a II7-V7-I progression. All the rest of the movement is simply a way of opening that all up, and playing with ii-v-I insertions.

    And yes, the Ab7 acts as a substitute for the V chord, as John suggests. To get the dominant-tonic dynamic, simply play Bbma7-Ab7-Bbma7-Ab7-Bbma7 as a vamp, and the role of the Ab7 as a V chord substitute comes into focus.

    So there's F7 and Ab7, both of which are acting strongly in the capacity of dominant chords leading to Bbma7 as the tonic.

    Even in something as elusive as "Stella By Starlight," the trick of finding the primary dominants and the tonic still works. With the constantly shifting key center, it takes a bit more detective work, but the strength of "Stella By Starlight" is precisely that it plays on all the different variety of dominant-tonic relationships.
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    I'm wondering if there is such a thing as a Simple Music Theory Question
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  7. #57
    Registered User Doug Hoople's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Quote Originally Posted by groveland View Post
    There are two adjacent dom7's in melodic minor's Fifth Mode - That's a I7 and a bVII7, not bVIIma7. (The V7 and IV7 of melodic minor, right?) I think you lost me on this one.

    I do get your point - And the "normal dynamics" is the first thing we look for. Unless there's a good reason to expect something obscure, it would be crazy to look for it. Crazy unless we're on the Theory, Tips and Tricks board, of course.
    Wow, you're absolutely right. I didn't read your post properly. I misread your A7-Gma7-A7 as meaning I7-bVIIma7-I7 as the natural progression in a Mix-Flat6 mode (the fifth mode of the melodic minor), and I didn't double-check on the mandolin before I barged in writing. The big clue's right in the name isn't it, with the "Flat6".

    But, of course, you properly cited the I7-bVII7-I7 before you started talking about A7-Gma7-A7.

    An absence of due diligence on my part. Sorry for the confusion.

    But taking the Mix-Flat6 vamp, I7-bVII7-I7, that makes the bVII7 a perfect substitute for the V chord, so I'd have to say that the Mix-Flat6 version of this fits the category of dominant-tonic relationships. That is, if what you're looking at is a chord that aches to go somewhere and another chord that is the somewhere that the first chord is aching to go to.


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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    <I'm wondering if there is such a thing as a Simple Music Theory Question>

    Apparently not

  9. #59
    Registered User man dough nollij's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Quote Originally Posted by mandolirius View Post
    <I'm wondering if there is such a thing as a Simple Music Theory Question>

    Apparently not

    ...and if anyone ever posted one, it would still generate 614 very complicated answers!

  10. #60
    Registered User Doug Hoople's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Restless dominant goes home to tonic. That's complicated?
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    <Restless dominant goes home to tonic. That's complicated?>

    The OP seems to think so.

    <I obviously chose a terrible title for this thread.>
    Last edited by mandolirius; Jan-24-2009 at 12:33am. Reason: spelling error

  12. #62
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)


  13. #63
    Registered User Doug Hoople's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    OK, let's simplify.

    First, most of the tunes that people ask about are pretty simple, so things like substitute dominants and modes and bVII chords and talk of progressions and just about anything that we explain in words, and fancy jazz tunes that make up the exception to the rule are probably a little overkill.

    Instead, try a simple test.

    Run through the tune and stop it on any chord. That's right. Stop it. How does that feel?

    Does it feel like you're leaving things hanging? Do you feel like there's somewhere to go?

    Or does it feel like you've arrived somewhere? Does it feel like if you ended the song there that it would be right? That you'd be satisfied?

    Take 'Black Clouds,' which essentially lays along A-G-D-A and A-G-D-E-A cells. If you stop on the first A, it doesn't feel like you've gone anywhere yet. So play the A and then the G and stop. Do you feel like you've interrupted something? Probably. So G is most likely not the tonal center. Play the A-G-D. Same thing, right? If you stopped right there, you'd feel like you've interrupted the tune, right? Where does the D want to go? In this case, it wants to go to the A, right?

    So the first clue is that A is the place that all these chords want to go to. So now, play the A-G-D-E. The E really pops out, doesn't it? That's because it's got a G# in it, and we've gotten used to playing G naturals from all those G chords. Again, ask whether it feels like you've interrupted the tune, or whether it feels like you've arrived somewhere. Interrupted, right? And what chord feels like it's the most logical next chord? That's right, the A. Try playing any other chord but the A and see how it feels... probably anywhere from not quite as right as the A to downright wrong.

    So now, play the whole A-G-D-E-A sequence. That probably seems fairly complete, right? If you stop there, does it feel like you've interrupted something, or does it feel like it would be all right if you ended it right there?

    It probably feels like you're not left hanging when you stop on the A. That's a pretty good indicator that the A is the tonal center of the piece. That's your key.

    That process of testing all the stopping points is the simplest test of what key you're playing in.

    There are other factors that come into play, like the length of the phrases, and the rhythm of the piece, and how the melody flows from phrase to phrase, and the overall balance of things. But they'll generally also fall into place in the same way.

    Of course, that's for the 99% case, and there are plenty of exceptions. But for most of the common cases, testing the stopping points will give you reliable clues as to the key center. You can FEEL it. Or, more to the point, you can feel it when you stop early.

    Pretty simple, no?
    Doug Hoople
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    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Everything is complicated if you don't understand it. It's not the fault of theory...and there is validity in the "play, don't worry" approach as well.

    For those who despair when dealing with theory, it's the same frustration you'd feel at learning anything new- there are confusions, contradictions, and a lot of flying on faith involved until things come together. When they do...



    ...it's awesome (WAYNE'S WORLD!!! WAYNE'S WORLD!!! TOHHHHHHGA!!!!)

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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    I'm sorry if my mention of shifting tonal centers in "Stella By Starlight" amounted to such a huge distraction.

    I still feel the piece the original poster inquired about is closest to being in the key of A. If I were trying to solo or play rhythm with that band, it would seem too time consuming and therefore counterproductive to conceive of the progression as something in E or a list of modes. I would get out my key of A language and deal with the other spots (like the C chord) as they came along.

    I also agree with my friend John: all approaches are valid(especially if one winds up sounding good) and there's nothing new under the sun. Apparently there are any number of ways to label certain harmonic situations--scales, modes, chords, cadences, genre-specific, vogues even. The one thing we can be sure of is that if something sounds really cool, Bix, Bird, Bill Monroe or the Beatles probably did it decades ago...

    I can't help but recall the opening salvo of a Joe Pass video(can't remember which one). He's going over Satin Doll. Dm7-G7, then Em7-A7....he says(in effect) "everybody talks about Dorian mode, or whatever...to me, Dm7-G7 is JUST ALL C MAJOR" If only us mortals could get our "C Major" to sound like THAT, huh? His point, I feel, is that the parent tonality(C) is suggested by the
    iim7, or the V7, or the combination thereof. An improv teacher I had corroborated this approach by encouraging me to isolate tonalities by looking for dominant chords and their corresponding chords of preparation. A dominant chord with a tension(say, C7b9)USUALLY(not always) indicates a minor tonality, particularly in conjunction with a iim7b5. In major keys, the iim7 and V7 are almost interchangeable...

    Sorry, more distraction. SO, the piece is in A, right?

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    Registered User Doug Hoople's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    This Is the Music Theory forum, isn't it?

    The OP might have gotten a simpler answer by posting the same question in the Bluegrass or the Rock forum.

    The Music Theory forum is haunted by, well, Music Theory fans. Music Theory fans have a tendency toward explaining things, no? Maybe sometimes to a fault.

    When the asnwer to a simple question spins out of control, as it often does here in Music Theory land, it can be very entertaining, if a bit dense.

    I think it's evidence of the passion for trying to understand music that characterizes the people who hang out here! And the passion for sharing that understanding!

    Nothing wrong with that, in my book, except that it sometimes leads to too much information. Would you rather have too little information?
    Doug Hoople
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    Ben Beran Dfyngravity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    When I come across tunes like this I try to not worry so much about the actual key of the song and try to focus more on the melody. The G chord appears because the melody calls for it, for some reason or another. So I would imagine that you can stay in the key of "A" for the most part, and then when the G chords comes you can make some adjustments and capture that feeling the G chords presents in the melody.

  18. #68
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    "everybody talks about Dorian mode, or whatever...to me, Dm7-G7 is JUST ALL C MAJOR" ... SO, the piece is in A, right?
    It's consistent with Mr. Pass' statement to say this tune is all just D major. And then briefly to A major. I'm certain that's the line of thinking Joe Pass was communicating in the quote attributed to him.

    (Of course, the tonal center being A, that's more correctly A mixolydian. And then briefly to E mixolydian.)

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    Registered User ApK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Hoople View Post
    Maybe sometimes to a fault.
    Nah.

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    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Quote Originally Posted by groveland View Post
    It's consistent with Mr. Pass' statement to say this tune is all just D major. And then briefly to A major. I'm certain that's the line of thinking Joe Pass was communicating in the quote attributed to him.

    (Of course, the tonal center being A, that's more correctly A mixolydian. And then briefly to E mixolydian.)
    I can't speak for Joe Pass, but I don't think any player would say this song is in the key of D Major. For one thing, inconsistent with Joe's C major example, the 2 chord here is Major if it's D, and the C would become a b7, so then you might have to call it D Mix. Why can't it just be A, with G and C thrown in?
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

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    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Stiernberg View Post
    ...
    I still feel the piece the original poster inquired about is closest to being in the key of A. If I were trying to solo or play rhythm with that band, it would seem too time consuming and therefore counterproductive to conceive of the progression as something in E or a list of modes. I would get out my key of A language and deal with the other spots (like the C chord) as they came along.

    <<Some pretty cool stuff>>

    Sorry, more distraction. SO, the piece is in A, right?
    Yes, it's in A. Not that I'm anybody, but I would handle the changes exactly the way Don said he would.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

    "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann

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  22. #72
    Registered User Doug Hoople's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Broyles View Post
    I can't speak for Joe Pass, but I don't think any player would say this song is in the key of D Major. For one thing, inconsistent with Joe's C major example, the 2 chord here is Major if it's D, and the C would become a b7, so then you might have to call it D Mix. Why can't it just be A, with G and C thrown in?
    Actually, to say that a piece in A mixolydian is "all D major" is completely consistent with what Joe Pass was saying. There are a lot of people who get crazy about understanding the modes in their own right (meaning it's a poor crutch to think of A mixolydian as D major), but it's also true that D major will get you all the right notes, and if it's Joe Pass who's saying it, then it must be true, and at least for him, it is.

    The C chord is an outlier, appears only very briefly, and doesn't really affect the tonality of the piece at all, so it should be ignored.

    The chord that throws the Joe Pass "all D major" concept off is the E chord, which is the V chord dominant for the piece. But that's simple... when you get to the E chord just play G# instead of G natural... for that brief moment, you're in A major. Or, if you don't want to be processing that kind of information on the fly, then don't play any G at all! You might miss the best colors by doing that, but you're guaranteed you won't get it wrong.

    Temporary key changes in the middle of a piece are the spice of life. Just because there's an occasional G# doesn't mean that the whole piece is in A major... it just means for that particular (very brief) moment it is.
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  23. #73
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Broyles View Post
    I can't speak for Joe Pass, but I don't think any player would say this song is in the key of D Major. For one thing, inconsistent with Joe's C major example, the 2 chord here is Major if it's D, and the C would become a b7, so then you might have to call it D Mix. Why can't it just be A, with G and C thrown in?
    Not true. Here's why:

    The Joe Pass example explicitly states even though the chords are Dm7 and G7, He won't call it D dorian, even though Dm7 and G7 are in fact the i and IV of D dorian. He says he looks at it as C major, and the Dm7 and G7 are the ii and the V of C major. It's all C major to him. (And to me too.) Likewise he would have refrained from calling G7 as G mixolydian. It's all C major.

    By the same token, if Joe Pass was talking about Em7 and A7, he would have said it's all D major to him, even though Em7 and A7 are in fact the i and IV of E dorian. He would say he looks at it as D major, and the Em7 and A7 are the ii and the V of D major. It's all D major to him. (And to me too.) Likewise he would have refrained from calling A7 as A mixolydian. It's all D major.

    Back to our tune. Using the chords, like the Joe Pass example, we determined the sum of the chords A, G, D is A mixolydian. That's D major ala the Joe Pass quote. (I love your assertion that 'no player would' say this song is in D major!)

    The E mixolydian exception for that short modulation. That would be A major ala the Joe Pass quote.

  24. #74
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Doug - You got in there as I was composing.

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    Registered User Doug Hoople's Avatar
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    Default Re: Simple Music Theory Question (what key?)

    Quote Originally Posted by groveland View Post
    Doug - You got in there as I was composing.
    Ya gotta be quick in the Music Theory forum. I can't tell you how many cross-posts I've had in here!
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