Chisels, Planes and Plans

[LVH]

Hello all,
I got my wood in from Bruce yesterday and it is awesome! I am going to start within the next month and I was wondering where I could get planes and chisels for cheap. Also where cab I get the plans for an old gibon a style. Are the graduations of an A5 the same as an A1?

[Joel Thomas]

What type of planes do you mean? Finger planes for carving the arches, or actual bench planes for jointing the plates, smoothing the ribs and truing the neck?

[LVH]

both

[barney 59]

Lots of tools on e-bay. Retail or catalog-- Stewart Macdonald,Luthiers Merchantile,Woodcraft Supply,Vitali Imports--but not cheap. A lifetime searching yardsales and flea markets,Dad's garage.

[woodwizard]

here's one of mine in the white........ oooops wait a minute ... were talkin mando's here sorry ... I was just thinkin' chisels

[billhay4]

Luke,
You don't want cheap tools, not new ones. They'll cost you more in the long run.
Get good ones and you'll be happier.
The best way to get good ones is to get used ones. They'll still cost you.
Right now, you only need one chisel to cut your dovetail and one gouge to carve the top and back. You need a block plane for all kinds of stuff, but you can get an old Stanley at a reasonable price. Make sure the blade is good, the bottom flat, and the adjustment works smoothly. You can clean up a dirty one.
You need a violin plane, too. These are hard to come by, but you can make a wooden one pretty easily. I think you'll find some examples of that on this site, but I may be wrong on that.
The gouge will cost you unless you find a used one. Don't get a lathe gouge, but a carving gouge. PM me and I'll see if I have a spare I can let you have for cheap. These are $75-$100 normally if you get a good Japanese one. I'd get a 1/2" - 3/4" number 3 or 5.
Where are you located? There might be a luthier nearby who'll let you used his or her shop and tools some times for free. Look in the Builders section of the Cafe and see who's nearby.
Bill

[LVH]

So are there any answers for me? haha.

[Joel Thomas]

Depends on what you mean by cheap! The most cost effective way to get tools that work precisely, maintain edges and have "value" is to buy vintage and rehabilitate. However, know that the rehabilitation bit has a learning curve of its own (sharpening included) that at times can seem infinitely steep.

There are a few tool collectors on the internet that regularly sell their flea-market findings for good price. This is probably your best bet, because the subtle flaws that can appear on ebay tools or those you discover on your own can be deal breakers that make the tool all but unusable, especially in the untrained hand.

Resist the urge to buy a new plane for "cheap" from a hardware store or internet retailer (generally those tools not made in the Americas). They end up not being cheap because the hours of labor you'll spend tuning them, repairing the shoddy work they do and sharpening their inferior irons would have bought you a real tool.

[woodwizard]

All kidding aside (sorry bout that). Good quality carving tools are essential in any wood working. Older is usually better. Although I do not build mandolins I do carve wood sculptures and have been for about 30 years. I have quality tools. And they can be pricy. While in Japan I picked up a large Gouge and and a large "V" tool for about $175 each. They were made by a sword maker. I also have some Swiss and German made tools that are about 50+ years old. Having quality tools and also knowing how to sharpen them correctly are very important. It's getting harder to find the older really nice carving tools. I think you will have better luck finding newer Swiss or German made tools. good luck

[Marc Berman]

Here's an article on making your own finger planes.
http://www.dunwellguitar.com/FingerPlanes/MyDesign.htm

[LVH]

Thank you Bill, Mike, Joel and Marc. This was very useful

[delsbrother]

Luke, sorry if you answered this somewhere else, but have you done any woodworking before? I only ask because as a beginner I know I would have found it daunting to go to a flea market (or ebay) looking for my first tools. Kind of like looking for old ukuleles or old VWs. Fun if you know what you're doing, but full of pitfalls for the uninitiated. Lots to be learned in the process though...caveat emptor.

[billhay4]

I think Luke is a young man (teenager) and is going to build his first mandolin. He's a player who wants to become a real star -- a luthier!
Correct me if I'm wrong, Luke.
Bill

[LVH]

You are correct, I finished recording my first album yesterday. It turned out awesome. I have worked with wood before but not that much. I know power tools well and I am currently huilding my shop. Luckily I have many friends who know woodworking very well and can help me in this search. My father owns his own buisness where he fixes machines and sells them( ice cream, slushie, espresso, ice etc.) so we have all the power tools

[grandmainger]

Resist the urge to buy a new plane for "cheap" from a hardware store or internet retailer (generally those tools not made in the Americas). They end up not being cheap because the hours of labor you'll spend tuning them, repairing the shoddy work they do and sharpening their inferior irons would have bought you a real tool.

Good point, but don't go thinking that a tool is not good just because it's not 'Made in America', though... Some of the best saws and large planes are UK-made and use Sheffield steel. Japanese chisels and gouges are also of the highest quality, and a Japanese saw is also a must-have in a shop...

In a nutshell, look beyond the origin of the tools, and try to assess their quality based on their feel, weight, fit, and price...

HTH
Germain

[barney 59]

Well Luke if you go on to being a woodworker you will, by and by get the tools you need. I have been a professional woodworker all my life and started when I was a teenager. If I had one piece of advise to give to someone young and starting out, it would be to start collecting wood. Lots of wood ---Find a place to store it and keep collecting. Buy green now for years from now. The ungodly prices you pay now will seem like a joke in a few years.

[LVH]

So I should collect alot of wood before I start building?
i have enough for two mandolins

[Bill Snyder]

Luke you have the wood from a good source so go ahead and tool up, plan up and build a mandolin or two.
If you have friends that are accomplished woodworkers, get their help with finding the tools. They should be a good source.
No matter how good a plane, chisel or gouge is if it is not sharp it will be a pain to use. They are also more dangerous because they take more effort to use and you are more likely to slip.
Point I am trying to make is that you will need to know how to sharpen your hand tools. There are several online tutorials on sharpening. Google one or two up and study them. You might start by googling "scary sharp". You do not need fancy equipment or expensive stones to sharpen your tools well. Several grits of good wet dry paper and a flat surface will do.

[LVH]

Thanks, I will be out of town for the next few weeks so I might not start building 'till march but that is ok

[barney 59]

Collect wood first?... Well you did.. but actually, you should now start building - get the tools you need anyway you can -as you need them. I don't totally agree with the "only get good" tools theory.Get as good as you can or can afford. You can get a set of Stanley or Marples chisels really reasonably and you can get alot of work out of them. Upgrade later. You don't have to have an acid etched damascus steel japanese samurai chisel.You can easily box yourself into a tool junkie corner thinking you need some special tool in order to proceed. There is no end-- it goes on and on and if you do it long enough you will need to add rooms to your shop to keep your tools because you ran out of room to work!
You can do tons of work with scrapers and files before you need to put out for finger planes. Sandpaper is a really useful tool, one of the very best. I learned alot in Asia watching wood carvers knock out incredible things with hardly any tools and what they had looked like they were made from old leaf springs . I keep alot of old knives, junk chisels, plane blades etc and I have a grinder and files to shape them into whatever I need them to do. I used to do a little kids woodworking class -there was only one type of tool used and that was the coping saw- you can do very complicated things with a coping saw and they only do minimal damage to kids. The japanese woodworking saws that you can get at any lumber yard these days are good and make fine cuts. I have some really good ones that I take good care of but I always have the cheap kind with the plastic handles handy and end up using them on my best stuff because they were handy and they do the job. I would get a block plane and a, #4 jack plane, a spoke shave and I would buy only one cam clamp from woodcraft -then go to the hardware store buy bar stock and split pins and make 20 or 30 or 40 more. Clamps and hold downs are important and the same holds true here as well -no matter how many you have you always need one more and now! When I was young I went through a purist phase and only wanted to use hand tools it was a stupid idea but it gave me a good base. Think of the operations you need to perform -you need some way to saw. some way to make a hole. some way to square a board. some way to carve and shape etc. One thing about having tools that make you go slow you can often catch yourself before the mistake your making ruins the piece.

[LVH]

I understand what you are saying. Should I make my own fingerplanes?

[barney 59]

No I'd concentrate on making the mandolin. You will beg buy or borrow some tools and maybe if you think that a finger plane is a necessary tool for what you are doing then get one, or make it if you want, but if maybe you can get the same result from gouges, rifflers and scrapers.... I don't know what your budget is of course -maybe you have a bunch of dough. My son had a girlfriend when he was in highschool that was supposed to have $18,000,000, her parents were wealthy too, anything is possible-so it might not be an issue for you- so go buy Norm's shop. If your anything like I was or my sons are now you have to stretch your money as most of us do. One place I would spend money on is good measuring tools- calipers, squares, straight edge, rule. and maybe a vise( your going to want a vise. I'd look for a straight up woodworking bench vice and then make cauls to hold any weird shapes). Unless Dad is a machinist you can't make or fake that stuff . I saw at Woodcraft some good looking and reasonably priced measuring tools and machinist squares from India at way less than Sterritt prices. I wouldn't worry too much about any kind of power tools- one thing about woodworking machinery is that none of them are accurate to any better than 1/64" and you are working on a project that requires considerably closer tolerances than that. I'm thinking back now and remembering all these things I used from the only handtool times. A good bowsaw- just like a band saw, but your the motor. You can rough out a neck,resaw a board, cut the body shape, great tool! That type of woodworking was really fun but I couldn't make a living at it and it is what I make my living at so it had to change. I'd get Roger Simanoff's mandolin construction book and woodworking instruction books by Tage Frid. Frid had such a great take on old world meets new world technique and explained it really well.

[Rob Powell]

Besides Stewmac, International Violin carries the good stuff. If you have a local Woodcraft the Pfiel stuff is pretty decent. They also carry a lot of other stuff you'll want/need like micromesh, varnish, lacquer, shellac flakes...etc. Make sure you have a sharpening set-up. I made one like this myself.

I prefer Woodcraft only because I can actually see what I'm buying.

The 3 primary tools you need can't be bought...time, patience and persistence ;-)

[Stephanie Reiser]

Luke, I admire your tenacity very much. It is good to see a young person determined to build himself a musical instrument. I have plenty of extra chisels, etc. PM me, and I will give you some chisels, gouges, and a small plane, and an oil stone to sharpen them on.
PS: Although finger planes are very handy for carving plates, they aren't essential.

[LVH]

Thanks so Much. The mandolin cafe is a great place to look for information and everyone here is so nice.