Fleeting visit to planet BG

[Bertram Henze]

Being an ITM player of many years, I met a man at one of our sessions who invited me to another session venue I didnt know before; the places is quite near, so I went the other day to see what would happen.

As it turned out, it was basically a Bluegrass jam with musicians who were interested in doing some Celtic stuff in between for a change.

I apologize in advance to all ye Bluegrass players out there. I have read so many storys about BG players who enter the world of ITM, but none about the opposite direction; I thought I might contribute some. I had never been to planet BG before, believe it or not.

It was weird from the start - I came in with my OM in its case, and maybe they were misguided by the fact that I wore a Stetson hat (which I do for its qualities in wet and cold weather, not for its lifestyle implications). One pointed at the case and said "four strings or five strings?" I must have looked very puzzled, because another one came to my help "nah, that's not a banjo". All those years, and never had anyone mistaken my OM case for a dark side container - up to now.
When they unpacked their instruments, it was all BG - small drum set, upright bass, guitar, harmonica and a Gibson 5-string banjo. The banjo player seemed to confirm all the cliches ever created about banjo players, by both playing style and looks. In fact, most of the bunch looked like the cast of Deliverance, and I (just kidding, I thought), threw those opening notes from the famous movie scene at him: bong - bong - bonnnngg and he really correctly answered PLOEEEINK! and accelerated directly into the fast part, all Scruggs, and the others joined in. I could only say what the guitar player in the film says: "I'm lost", only much earlier.

They let me play my Irish tunes every now and then, seemed to be very interested, and constantly bugged me with one question "what are the chords?", which cought me unawares because I never know any chords for tunes I play melody, and if I accompany I just act by ear. I later found out that their bluegrass tunes followed a rather simple pattern of 1-4-5 (mostly G-C-D) and I felt sorry I could not offer them anything like that for Irish music.

The Irish tunes they played themselves sounded like what they were: BG players trying to play Irish. There was the slowest version of Chief O'Neill's I ever heard, with the banjo player desperately trying to ploink out a fast melody with fingerpicks. His instrument was clearly not cut out for this genre, but the only one loud enough.

He retaliated later with Foggy Mountain, which to my surprise sported a fourth chord, and I banged away at them chords. But he kept shouting "off beat, 2 and 4!". Banging off-beat in time with all others proved a traumatic experience for me - like Star Wars Episode II where C-3PO finds himself marching in line with an army of battle droids. If there's one thing I can't do, it's marching in line - I so much longed to be back in the individual creativity of ITM accompaniment.

I still don't know if I ever go back to that event - it's once a month - but the man who invited me insists that he wants to push more ITM into the session and break the Banjo Empire and I could help him - I feel like a musical terrorist being recruited.

There's nothing I want to change with this thread. Just an experience I wanted to express, and maybe to add a personal view to complement the many views expressed here every day. Thank you for reading.

Bertram

[mandopete]

What is ITM?

[Eric W]

Irish Traditional Music

[Steve L]

ITM= Irish Traditonal Music.

Quite an experience Bertram...sounds like you had a good if perplexing time. I think that's pretty much what would happen to me if i came upon a bluegrass jam.

[allenhopkins]

What is ITM?

Irish Traditional Music.

It's a tough role, to be playing one style in another style's ballpark. If you find a "melodic" or "Keith style" banjo player, he/she may have experimented with some of the more familiar Celtic-derived instrumentals: Devil's Dream, Sailor's Hornpipe, Flowers of Edinburgh, Whiskey Before Breakfast etc. The banjoist who shouted "offbeats, 2 and 4" was trying to get the (octave) mandolin player to "chop" chords a la the classic bluegrass style, but that's not something you find Celtic players doing. There have been threads where bluegrass mandolin players have joined Celtic seisuns, and found that their off-beat "chops" weren't welcomed by the others.

I have found that even a mandola is met with suspicion by some of the bluegrass jam members, because, well, Bill Monroe never used one, and despite a few people like Rowan and McCoury who work them into bluegrass, the larger mandolins still are seldom seen. (Not Seldom Scene!) And Bertram's experience in not worrying much about the chord structure, but improvising accompaniment and rhythm using partial chords, double stops etc., is foreign to the bluegrass player who needs to have those chords firmly in mind if he/she's going to "get them right."

I think one can have a lot of fun cross-pollinating styles, if you get the right mix of musicians who are open-minded, competent enough to work outside their comfort zones, and generally welcoming of "new blood." But, honestly, Bertram's description of the jam members -- "most of the bunch looked like the cast of Deliverance" -- leads me to suspect there was a cultural divide there that might be hard to bridge musically. I wonder what their impression of him was. If you start with suspicion and a slightly superior attitude toward the other musicians, well, you're likely to get an unsatisfactory result.

[Mike Bunting]

When they unpacked their instruments, it was all BG - small drum set,

A small drum set!!
I know what you mean though, getting stuck in a musical rut can be tedious. I go to our local BG jam only when I need to feed the BG monster in me, fortunately there are other jams around town and though they all seem to have their ruts, there are enough of them to switch it up when I need the change.

[Bruce Clausen]

(quoting Allen) I think one can have a lot of fun cross-pollinating styles, if you get the right mix of musicians who are open-minded, competent enough to work outside their comfort zones, and generally welcoming of "new blood."

Around where I live, John Reischman sets a very high standard for cross-pollination, playing with every kind of musician and band and always making great music. For example:




--BC

[EggerRidgeBoy]

When they unpacked their instruments, it was all BG - small drum set, upright bass, guitar, harmonica and a Gibson 5-string banjo.

It is interesting to get a different take on things - most bluegrass jammers I know would look with suspicion at that mix of instruments, with its drums and harmonicas. :-)

[catmandu2]

Yes, that is not at all a "traditional" BG jam. Once you include drums, you may as well add electric bass.

[testore]

You're a great writer. I usually don't read long posts, but yours was a good read. I felt like I was there. Maybe cuz I was there once when I brought my F model OM to a BG jam. It's always fun to stir the pot a little though isn't it?
Gary

[steve V. johnson]

Tomorrow we're going to visit Planet BG, at the 9th Annual Old Post Bluegrass Jam,
which is at Vincennes (Indiana) University's Beckes Student Union Bldg (1101 N. 2nd St.)
from 10am til 5pm.

There's to be an open stage til 11:45am and then four local bands on the stage, with loads
of places for other folks to jam til 5pm (formally, anyway...).

I'm told that it's a big and well-respected event, with lots of young players. AwwRIGHT!!

This is the 2nd Sunday of the month, so we'll be over in Vincennes to go to our usual Irish
session in the White Owl Winery (on the Illinois side of the Wabash River), and a bunch of
us are going to drop in to the Old Post Jam to hear some friends and (for my part) listen.
I guess some of our gang can play BG, too, but I haven't tried it in years.

I'm looking fwd to it. Around here BG folks usually watch in a sorta mystified manner when
they hear us play ITM, and I guess we look the same at high-speed instrumental solo breaks, which essentially never happen in ITM.

I'm sorry to learn that you had a bad experience (not -too- bad, really), crossing the genres.
We don't need visas to enter each other's lands, but I have to remember that, for me, going gently and openly across the frontier seems to make things go more smoothly.

I'm excited about tomorrow tho. I'll use my camera and recorder a lot more than my instruments.

And then we'll go drink wine and have some chunes! Woohoo.

stv

[mandozilla]

DRUMS?!? Why, that ain't no part of nothin'!

Actually, I've been to a few BG jams that had some percussionists of various types. Even though I'm a dyed in the Bluegrasser from way back, I got to admit that sometimes a good percussion person can really help keep the timing right when you have different skill levels playing.

Personally, I would NEVER have drums or ??? in a BG band but I say to each his own and don't sweat the BG Police!

[Fretbear]

The sound of a five-string and a snare drum playing together makes me want to end my own life.....
And I like both the five-string and a good snare drum.

[man dough nollij]

It sounds like a lot of fun, just so long as the judgementalism and criticism are kept to a polite minimum.

I love the way Ricky Skaggs has tied in the relationship of BG to ITM with songs like Road To Spencer. He tells a story on one album of how he travelled around Ireland jamming with folks, realizing that a lot of the tunes he learned coming up matched with traditional tunes.

I don't see any reason for a rift between the two traditions, and I think the idea of "post bluegrass" jams sounds awesome. (Flame Alert!) Post-bluegrass doesn't mean it's going anywhere, just a melding of the traditions.

[Mike Snyder]

Embrace the diversity. I REALLY wish that each and every one of you could come to Winfield Ks. in
September. The campgrounds are loosely divided into "camps" of folks who have been picking together for years. There are ITM folks, dulcimer folks, gypsy jazz, bluegrass, OT, the contest people, newgrass, neo zoom dweebie- it's all here. And it's not static. All these different genres mix and match in jams all over the campground. You'll see cellos, saxophones, pump organs, string basses made out of Volkswagon gas tanks. It gets pretty eclectic when the jazz guys and the grassers and the bodrans mix it up. I camped next to Radim Zenkel once. Saw a sitar in a jam.
More than one camp always bring upright pianos. I tend to gush, sorry, but the mix just becomes extrordinary.
Musical diversity, gotta lovit!

[Ivan Kelsall]

Don't be put off by the BG boys Bertram - i'm one of them.The fact that they seem to be willing to listen to ITM,can't be a bad thing in itself. I'd go along just to show them what your music is all about & to getthem interested. I'd hope that they're open minded enough to appreciate another form of music.
I have the reverse problem with the ONLY music session that i know of close to me. It's ALL ITM !.
I go along with my Mandolin & my handfull of tunes that i really CAN play (as against fumble thro.)
& get to play none of them - the ITM guys are just NOT interested in their American musical offspring. I just sit & try (with a degree of success),to play some of their music which i do really love,but can't play well. I also have the problem of being heard over 2 Guitars,2 Fiddles,a Tenor Banjo,an Accordion,A Bouran & Irish pipes. A few months ago,another Mandolin player turned up,he was only 10 feet (3 metres) away from me,but neither of us could hear the other. In the interval,we put our instruments away & simply listened,but i still go - just for the pain !!!!,
Saska

[Bertram Henze]

But, honestly, Bertram's description of the jam members -- "most of the bunch looked like the cast of Deliverance" -- leads me to suspect there was a cultural divide there that might be hard to bridge musically. I wonder what their impression of him was. If you start with suspicion and a slightly superior attitude toward the other musicians, well, you're likely to get an unsatisfactory result.

Well, I didn't mean to imply a difference in level, just a difference as such.

The famous Deliverance scene does not show a right vs. wrong lifestyle difference either, IMO, the dorky townspeople not really being better persons than the villagers, just an incompatibility with the exception of two persons playing music together, thus forming a brief moment of peace in an otherwise hostile situation.

But what struck me at the jam (and reminded me of the film) was the similarity of personalities, a homogenous sample of people (same age, similar faces) as opposed to the wildly mixed cross-section of types I usually find in ITM sessions.

Again, I am not trying to belittle anyone who are happy with their own music.

Bertram

[Bertram Henze]

I'd go along just to show them what your music is all about & to getthem interested. I'd hope that they're open minded enough to appreciate another form of music.

Yes, that's what I will probably do. They seem to be open minded, just lacking the ITM experience, just as I am lacking BG experience. It was an overall friendly situation, nothing like "Mars Attacks".

Bertram

[Bertram Henze]

Yes, that is not at all a "traditional" BG jam. Once you include drums, you may as well add electric bass.

Did I mention that the drums player also plays electric bass in a band?

To make the drums description precise: 1 snare drum + 1 high hat + 2 brushes. It was quite modestly played, all in all.

Bertram

[Bertram Henze]

Around where I live, John Reischman sets a very high standard for cross-pollination, playing with every kind of musician and band and always making great music.

That's a wonderful video, showing the universality of pentatonic scales. But I guess this needs some rehearsing, nothing you can pull off when accidentally stumbling into another genre the first time.

I was not completely unprepared for American genres, though, because I do play a few Old Time and Contradance, but that's still far away from BG.

Bertram

[Adam Tracksler]

well, at least they were TRYING to play with you. ITM is related to BG, but different, if they were asking the chords, they wanted to try at least. I have been at a jam or 2 when I whip out a crooked OT tune, and end up being the only one playing it... kinda sucks. I will ask what the chords are, so I can learn the song too (Isn't that half the fun of a jam? learning something new?).

I'll be the first one to admit it, that ITM makes my eyes go crosswise. Its ususally played too fast for me to keep up on, and i hate a lot of the "death dirge" songs, but I am learning to appreciate it more, learning jig timing has improved my playing tremendously.

Keep at it, although that may have been the slowest chef o'neil you ever heard, the next time, it will be faster... keep up with it.

I love to play other things than trad. BG in a jam.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Quote from Adam - "ITM is related to BG,but different". The biggest difference is the tempo. Nearly ALL the tunes that my friends play on fiddle,if the time signature was changed,then they'd be straight up 'Bluegrass style' tunes,& easily accessible as far as me playing them goes. The other thing is the 'weird' key changes.Even if you get the tempo right,you can be playing along ok & then WHAM !!!! you're in another key & then maybe another. It certainly keeps one on one's toes - but it's still fun ,
Saska

[DryBones]

they probably had a snare drum because nobody was playing mandolin.

[San Rafael]

Exactly, Drybones.