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Thread: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

  1. #26
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    Wait a second. If we want a flat stroke, what's up with all this righty bevel/lefty bevel stuff? And doesn't Mike Marshall teach keeping your headstock up at a 45° angle to your picking forearm? And why should I practice coming to rest on the next string, if I really want to stop between the strings? I am not trying to be argumentative here. This truly makes no sense to me.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

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  2. #27
    Registered User kudzugypsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    its hard to give some advice here without a little more info from the poster, and i'm sort of beginning to think from the replies that people think you play ALL rest strokes and thats not really the case - you are still using D U D picking but your angle of attack is different

    i tell people there are 2 ways to 'pick' the string - you can pick AT the string or THROUGH the string. picking AT the string is when you make a "U" shape on the DUDs using mainly your hand/wrist - and picking THROUGH the string is when you drive the pick at an angle causing it to rest on the next string - this is done with a drop on the whole forearm/wrist/hand in one motion - now, when you are really needing speed, you have to adjust this some.
    so...
    THE classic example of up tempo rest stroke picking is the youtube video of Dave Apollon
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwOZjFvjKUA&NR=1
    - which should answer the debate about not being able to play rest strokes as fast as free strokes - you can clearly see him at this camera angle using rest stroke picking.
    just watch that video 1,000x and you will get the idea...

  3. #28
    Registered User 40bpm's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    As the original poster, I was looking for input on whether to always use rest strokes on both down and up strokes. My conclusion is to practice that way with a metronome for as long as I can stand it - then just clear my mind and play.

    If I keep at it, maybe I'll have to change my handle to 50bpm .

    Jan

  4. #29

    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Broyles View Post
    Wait a second. If we want a flat stroke, what's up with all this righty bevel/lefty bevel stuff? And doesn't Mike Marshall teach keeping your headstock up at a 45° angle to your picking forearm? And why should I practice coming to rest on the next string, if I really want to stop between the strings? I am not trying to be argumentative here. This truly makes no sense to me.
    You are over-analyzing this whole thing.

    The common tendancy for a picking motion is to hold the pick above the strings (further from the top of the mandolin than the strings) and then swoop in to pick the string and swoop back out to avoid hitting the next string. It is better to have the pick down between the strings and stroke straight across both strings in the course without moving the pick closer to or futher from the top of the mandolin. This will produce a better tone but the tendancy would be to pick the next string as well on the follow through. When one consciously tries to stop the pick before it hits the next string one tends not to pick both strings in the course with the same force. The way to avoid slowing the pick while it moves through both strings is to use the next string to stop the pick. That is the rest stroke.

    Pick bevel and the angle you hold the mandolin also affect the way you strike the string but now you are getting into the issue of attack angle on a different dimension. It is best not to have the pick moving either from the bridge end to the nut end or the other way.

    You really want to pick straight across the strings with the pick at the same depth. If you already do this you should just find another topic to read.

    BTW, tremolo is not a rest stroke.

  5. #30
    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    Rest strokes really maximize the punch and projection of your instrument. Try this:

    pick a string (course) with the 'swooping' pick that lifts the string up as you pluck. Watch the string vibrate- kind of vertically.

    pick the same string with a rest stroke and watch the string vibrate. It spins in a circle, and to my ears, creates a rounder, fatter tone- which I think happens because the instrument is now doing what is was built to do, mechanically speaking- getting the bridge and top to vibrate more efficiently.

    You won't use them much in fast fiddle tunes, but getting used to the angle needed to execute them at slower tempos helps you keep the pick 'in closer' to the strings, or what i can 'down toward the top', rather than that lift/drop attack that to my ears is unlovely in contrast. YMMV.

    The Gypsy picking works great on guitar where you play less notes per string. Their rule is to never switch strings on an upstroke (obviously there are some exceptions, but that's the traditional gypsy way to do it- NO exceptions in the hard core tradition). When you play Django's lines and sort out how he had to finger them with two functional left hand fingers, and you apply this rule, it leads you to some AWESOME discoveries, both tonewise and approach-to-the-fingerboardwise.

    Your downstroke/reststroke Monroe stuff sounds pretty lame when you alternate pick it, as does Chuck Berry and Metallica

  6. #31

  7. #32

    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    Quote Originally Posted by John McGann View Post
    OP- they aren't generally used on upstrokes...
    Well I've never been able to use a rest upstroke in anything but practice but doing it in practice helped me learn to stop lifting the pick on the upstroke.

  8. #33
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    Yeah, but I never swoop. My pick stays right down there at the strings. I don't lift it on either the down- or the upstroke, but I don't bring it to rest on the next string. I don't even how to try to make myself do it. The whole thing seems abnormal to me. And how is there an "attack angle" along with a "flat stroke?" To me "flat stroke" implies no angle, as in parallel to the strings. I think I'll just go back to never having heard of a rest stroke.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

    "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann

    "IT'S T-R-E-M-O-L-O, dangit!!"~Me

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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?



    Jim, you don't swoop? All the cool cats do it...last time I swooped, I got a DUI.

  10. #35
    Registered User kudzugypsy's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    the reason rest strokes work so well is, as john said, you are now PUSHing the string into the soundboard, this is a BIG deal vs just 'picking' the string to put it in motion - its an entirely different movement.

    and Jim - you dont need to use a rest stroke ALL the time - its just another tool in your bag - i use the rest stroke maybe 60% of the time, mainly when i really need to "dig in there and whip it like a mule" - i dont understand all the confusion with the small adjustments needed to produce one tone over another tone - if you look at a violin bow, you would think ok, down bow, up bow, what more is there to it - well a violinist can use that bow to get a WIDE range of sounds by the speed he pulls it, where on the bow he chooses to play, the pressure from his wrist, the angle the hair contacts the string, where the bow contacts the strings, how straight its pulled, how much tension the hair is set at, etc, etc, etc....ALL these are very slight adjustments - its sort of the same with a pick - people try to lock in on ONE way to do something and yes, that will work to a point, and its a good start, but you are gonna have to let the sound/music/style determine a lot of the choice of how to play a piece - you are not gonna play Rawhide with the same grip/attack you pick Faded Love with.

  11. #36

    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Broyles View Post
    Yeah, but I never swoop. My pick stays right down there at the strings. I don't lift it on either the down- or the upstroke, but I don't bring it to rest on the next string. I don't even how to try to make myself do it. The whole thing seems abnormal to me.
    Why worry about it so much? Seems to me that you don't need to change anything so don't change anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Broyles View Post
    And how is there an "attack angle" along with a "flat stroke?" To me "flat stroke" implies no angle, as in parallel to the strings.
    Three dimensions. You need to pick 90 degrees across the strings ( -|-| not /|/| )AND with a flat stroke ( _._. not \./.). But if you pick parallel to the strings you won't get much sound.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Broyles View Post
    I think I'll just go back to never having heard of a rest stroke.
    Probably a good idea. It is hard to fix a problem you don't have.

  12. #37
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    I'm not worrying about it, but it strikes me as another one of those over-thought execution issues which tend to keep some of our members in a state of anxiety. To be honest, I can't make heads nor tails of:
    Three dimensions. You need to pick 90 degrees across the strings ( -|-| not /|/| )AND with a flat stroke ( _._. not \./.). But if you pick parallel to the strings you won't get much sound.
    I hold my pick parallel to the strings and I get plenty of sound.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

    "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann

    "IT'S T-R-E-M-O-L-O, dangit!!"~Me

  13. #38

    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    Jim, that's why it is so hard to describe. Words like "under", "across", "up", "down" and all the others mean different things to different people. "Down" seems so simple but does it mean towards the floor or towards the mandolin top?

    If you think about throwing a ball or hitting a golf ball one thing that is always emphasized is "follow through". Since nothing you do after you release the ball or after the club makes contact with the ball can affect the ball's flight in any way "follow through" isn't something that really affects ball flight. The reason "follow through" is emphasized is to encourage people to not slow the stroke before contact.

    When picking a mandolin string "follow through" is just as important as in throwing or hitting a ball. The player must avoid slowing the pick stroke until after the string is picked. For most people the logical way to "follow through" on the pick stroke would be to raise the pick in order to avoid hitting the next string. This will encourage a swooping stroke. If the player simply allows the next string to stop the pick stroke then there is no need to raise the pick and the swooping stroke won't happen. The result is more power transferred to both strings in the course and better sound.

    As far as the parallel vs perpendicular thing. The pick stroke is perpendicular to the string and the pick itself should not slide along the string during the stroke.

  14. #39
    Ben Beran Dfyngravity's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    Jim, by no means was I implying that you do a swoop motion, apologies if that is that way you took it. It sounds to me like you already have solid picking technique.

    Let me try to explain a little bit more by how it helps to keep your stroke to a minimum. First off, I don't mean that it only minimizes your stroke past the string you plucked, that is done more with control. But here is my argument. Basic physics says that every action has an equal but opposite reaction. So when you strike a string it strikes you back with equal force. To over come this a couple things have to happen. One, you can strike the string with enough force to literally break through the string, and occasionally this does happen. Or two, your wrist can hinge up as it is hinging down which allows the pick to glide up and over the string. To the naked eye, you really cannot see this motion. It simply looks as if your wrist is hinging down and you are playing though the string. But as you speed up, this motion can become more prevalent and lead to the "swoop" stroke. And in my mind this is that action you want to keep to a minimum. The "rest" stroke promotes a stroke with more force and one that keeps the pick close to the strings. So for me it keeps my entire right hand motion to a minimum.

    This may all sound like it is being over analyzed, and to an extent it is, but I tend to think in technical terms. When I first started the mandolin as being classically trained. Classical training is all about technique and efficiency. I think about the pick stroke much like a classical guitarist thinks about their right hand "finger style". Where it is a natural tendency for your wrist to hinge away from the strings as your finger plucks the strings, they want their wrist and hand to remain still. It is obviously not the same as flatpicking, but I think the imagery.

    Here is a video demonstrating this for those interested
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKb7Z...eature=related

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    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    If it's any consolation, I don't "get" the rest stroke. But I don't get that "swooping" thing either. On the other hand, that "swoop" is exactly how I was taught to practice a good picking stroke by an instructor of good reputation - He didn't use that word, but that's how I would describe what I saw. And what I actually do is neither of these.

    This is one of those times where words fail and only a live sit-down lesson will do.

  16. #41
    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    Unshameless commerce warning

    I talk about it a bit and show the idea in my Sound Fundamentals DVD as well as many other issues that are best seen rather than typed about...

  17. #42

    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    One final (I hope) observation... If the rest stroke was a common thing it wouldn't be so closely associated with one genre of music (Gypsy Jazz) and there wouldn't be so many people who have never heard of it.

    No reason you couldn't go your entire life without ever knowing or caring about the rest stroke.

  18. #43
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    Well, when I Googled it the first hit I got was a classical guitar demonstration and the rest stroke was an upward fingerpicking motion which began with the fingertip resting on the string.
    As far as the parallel vs perpendicular thing. The pick stroke is perpendicular to the string and the pick itself should not slide along the string during the stroke.
    What I was talking about was the orientation of the plane of the pick to the lines which are the strings. I do not rotate the pick nor do I angle the neck so that the non-rotated pick is automatically angled to the strings. This is why a beveled pick doesn't work for me.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

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  19. #44
    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    I wonder if some of you guys don't "see" the rest stroke concept (or care about it) because you've already got a pretty good technique. And I agree with that position.

    However, a year or so ago when I was making a big push to get from beginner to intermediate level (whatever that means), I was trying to learn some tunes like Blackberry Blossom & such and was having a hard time. I was MISSING notes (probably because I was trying to play faster than I was ready to) and when I did hit many of the notes, they sounded pretty thin.

    I came across this rest stroke concept on SOME forum or discussion group and the web and the concept really clicked. My technique improved pretty steeply (for a while) when I concentrated on picking through the string to the next string.

    Do I now try to REST on the next string every time I play a note? Of course not. But the technique DID help me move from a low plateau of poor technique to a higher plateau (of poor technique ).

    I found it helpful but not stifling. If you don't need it at your present level, I wouldn't sweat it.
    Phil

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    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    Quote Originally Posted by TomTyrrell View Post
    One final (I hope) observation... If the rest stroke was a common thing it wouldn't be so closely associated with one genre of music (Gypsy Jazz) and there wouldn't be so many people who have never heard of it.

    No reason you couldn't go your entire life without ever knowing or caring about the rest stroke.
    ...Unless you like to play classical or classic bluegrass or old school acoustic jazz (not just Gypsy style but swing players from Eddie Lang through Charlie Christian)- rest strokes are pretty commonly used, to great effect, if you dig into the roots of these styles.

    I wasn't hip to them outside of classical guitar until about 8 years ago, and they have really made a difference in my sound FWIW.

  21. #46
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    A while back someone posted these videos at a Mike Keyes mandolinsessions page. Peter O is showing how to pick through a string and stop at the next. He says applying this exercise is guaranteed to make you a 100% better player. It sure looks like a potential rest stroke to me: This Page, 3 short movies, the 2nd and 3rd ones particularly. Note the 'bounced' motion he talks about on the 3rd one - That's what I thought we were calling 'swoop'.

  22. #47
    Registered User 40bpm's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    Last night I tried doing the rest stroke only on downstrokes - I had previously been using it both directions. Much easier to do on the down strokes only - Thanks Mr. McGann.

    I learned about the rest stroke many years ago from a classical guitarist and I figured it might be useful on all plucked stringed instruments. I also play 3-finger banjo (don't tell!) and when I begin my practice session, I set the metronome at - you guessed it - 40bpm and play my rolls very slowly and quietly using the rest stroke. It sure gets your picking fingers in the right mood.

    Thanks again to all who contributed or read this post.

    Jan

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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    After reading this section, I've been working on rest strokes (up and down) for the last week or so and have noticed quite a bit of an improvement in my playing (never really thought they were too important before). Does anybody have any ideas of a daily exercise regime I could use? I've been imagining the up and down strokes as a bit like flicking a tiddliwink which seems to have the desired effect. Am I going in the wrong direction on this score? All suggestions welcome.

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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    After reading this section, I've been working on rest strokes (up and down) for the last week or so and have noticed quite a bit of an improvement in my playing (never really thought they were too important before). Does anybody have any ideas of a daily exercise regime I could use? I've been imagining the up and down strokes as a bit like flicking a tiddliwink which seems to have the desired effect. Am I going in the wrong direction on this score? All suggestions welcome.

  25. #50
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    Default Re: "Rest Stroke" at high speed?

    Jan,
    I took some lessons with Evan Marshall several years ago to get my horrible right-hand technique cleaned up. I had a very inefficient pick stroke--wobbling all over the place. The first thing Evan did was to get me using the rest stroke. He really stressed the follow through of the stroke as well. Like John said, the rest stroke wasn't used on the upstroke. As far as speed is concerned, Evan was using it cleanly and effectively at speeds I consider fast. Way beyond my speed limit anyway.
    Steve



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