Jointing without a jointer?

[Brett Moore]

So I've just recently started the physical process of building my first instruments after a long period of studying and researching every possible material I could get my hands on. My question of the day for all those experienced luthiers out there has to do with creating joints for gluing top boards without using a jointer or any power tool. I know there are jointer planes out there, like a #7 Stanley, but I have a tight budget and limited access to tools right now. Could y'all talk about how you've prepared your tops and backs for gluing using more modest methods?

[billhay4]

I have a lot of trouble with this myself. But, I'd recommend a shooting board IF you have a short plane that cuts well.
Here are some plans for one Shooting Board plans
You'd clamp your piece onto the board long ways and have at it.
Conversely, you can clamp the plane and move the board across it like a jointer.
If you have no plane, I'd take it somewhere to get jointed.
This is a critical joint and needs to be right.
Bill

[Joel Thomas]

You could use sandpaper adhered to a flat surface, like a piece of plate glass or granite, but this is laborious and leaves a less than desirable surface, especially if you plan on using hide glue.

You don't need a #7 to true something as short as a top plate, a #5 is plenty long enough, and being the most common size, can be had second-hand (via e-bay or tool seller) for under $50 if you don't mind doing a little rehab, and even less if you buy another make, which are just as good as a Stanley.

[Rob Grant]

I don't particularly like the "scream" of power planners or joiners, so my choice is a No.7 and a homemade "shooting board." Until I designed this setup, trying to properly join tops was a righteous pain in the arse. The board and plane is a pleasure to use and I get a perfect join every time. You can probably use a shorter plane, but the longer No.7 does make the job easier and more exact.

[buddyellis]

I use an almost identical setup to rob, except I use my table saw as the 'table, and a long, flat piece of oak (well actually two pieces, one laminated to the other with the plane clamped to the lower one like you see above, this is to raise wood up into the center of the plane) as my 'shooting board'. I also tend to pull the wood TOWARD me as I find, for me, it's more controllable. Personal preference.

P.S. you can easily use this setup with a #5 if you are careful. You can find them all day for under $30 if you look around. It'l likely need some tuneup to get it working right (most old planes will be setup for smoothing, etc, not jointing, and the blade will likely be slightly rounded so the edges don't cut into the work when smoothing, you'll have to work on getting the edge dead flat again for jointing work, but this isn't a big deal)

[Rick Turner]

There ARE limits to what you can do with a very limited budget, limited tools, and a limited skill set. When I went to Ecuador, I saw a couple of lutherie shops in which the only power tool was a band saw and the hand tools would fit in a briefcase.

If you want to see a guy working with great skills and minimal tooling, check out the Benito Huipe video on building guitars Paracho-style. You'll be amazed to see what the Spanish tradition luthiers can do with not much more than a home-made knife, but they've got years of experience and amazing chops.

[Gerard Dick]

You can make your own wooden plane too. Then your main expense would be for a good iron. There were plans or a link to plans posted here a little while ago.

[grandmainger]

I second the use of a #5 plane. I have actually used my trusty old Record #4 to joint a top, but it was a little too short and I had to work on it quite a while before I got a good fit. A #5 with a well-sharpened blade will certainly do the job, and can be had for cheap on the second-hand market.

GM

[Keith Newell]

Hey Buddy and Rob, I use the same setup but with a #8 and it has a Hock blade system in it. It is so satisfying to hear the sound it makes and if you save the chips they make awesume fire starter.
Keith Newell
http://www.newellmandolin.com

[Bill Snyder]

I have several planes including Stanley #'s 3, 4, 5 1/2, 6 and 7 (and various other makes and sizes) and for joining top/back plates I prefer the # 5 1/2.
Brett you want to join the plates and you said you have limited access to tools right now. In order to answer your question we would need to know WHAT tools you have access to. Otherwise we are going to be suggesting using things you do not have.
Do you have a plane of any size? Can you afford $15-20 on a garage sale plane? Do you have a router or can you borrow one? Do you have a 2-4 foot long level? If so you can glue sandpaper to it and make something similar to the shooting board to use.
Your best may bet may be to borrow the needed tools or pay someone to join the plates for you.
Good luck.

[Rob Grant]

Keith wrote:
"I use the same setup but with a #8 and it has a Hock blade system in it. It is so satisfying to hear the sound it makes and if you save the chips they make awesume fire starter."

I know what you mean about the sound.

Someplace I heard that Viking scribes would copy runic inscriptions on the edges of planks and then plane the message off in a single continuous "curl." They would then bind the "curl" with a thin bit of fiber and send it as a sealed message. I don't know if this is historically true, but it sounds good. The wife and I call those beautiful, thin curls of wood "Viking love letters."<g>

[Doug Edwards]

Here's my humble set up with a cheap Goez #5 jack plane. Git 'r done.

[Rick Lindstrom]

There's an old trick used by picture framers to get good joints: They cut the frame material as close to 45 degrees as possible, put it in the clamp that will hold it together for gluing, and then slice down through the joint with a coping saw. A little wood is removed, and when they push the pieces together, they have a very good joint. The beauty of this is that it doesn't matter if the angles were perfect, or if they were cut perfectly square to the material.

I can see this method being adapted for use in joining plate halves. It would require a jig that holds the halves on a flat surface, and provides relief for the saw. I'm envisioning a fine toothed Japanese type saw with no stiffener on it's back. Something like the super fine double edged saw on this page:

http://www.sharkcorp.com/Pullsaw/Finecut-Saws.html

If I were attempting this, I'd probably figure out a way to hold the halves with a slight separation so the saw would be sure to follow the joint. Maybe put something the thickness of a business card between the halves as you clamp them down, and then take them out before making the cut.

The beauty of this is that all you'll need is the saw and some scraps to build a jig, and the saw will be useful for other aspects of building your mando (I have one of these that I use frequently).

The same thing could probably be done with a router on a jig (run a straight bit through the joint), but that's a little scary to think about.

Rick

[markishandsome]

"You could use sandpaper adhered to a flat surface, like a piece of plate glass or granite, but this is laborious and leaves a less than desirable surface, especially if you plan on using hide glue."

This is what I did before I found my #6 at the flea market. If you want a more desirable surface, hit it with a cabinet scraper when you're done sanding. There's a pretty frustrating learning curve to getting a good joint with a plane. You might have more fun just building an instrument or two the caveman way before complicating things with fancy tools.

[Bill Snyder]

Rick, several people use a router as you described. I have done miters as you describe running a saw through them but on a long joint I do not think a hand saw of any type would do this successfully. I could be wrong.
I have a little flat top I joined doing something similar with a table saw about 4 or 5 years ago that still looks good. I tagged the two sides of the top plate together with two cleats and ran it through the saw using a fine toothed plywood blade. The blade was set shallow so as not to cut the cleats. Glued and clamped only with blue tape. I have not used the top on anything so I can hold it up to a light. It still looks good. Since then I have planed all of my joints.

[Rick Lindstrom]

I have done miters as you describe running a saw through them but on a long joint I do not think a hand saw of any type would do this successfully.

Hi Bill-

I'd agree with you if the piece being worked was an already profiled and very thin flat top board- it'd be dicey.

I'm betting, though, that for a carved plate, the joint is wide enough that it'd guide the saw through nicely, especially if a little clearance is provided.

If it works, I could see it being a lot easier and quicker than fooling around with persnickety planes

Rick

[Timbofood]

What about getting in good with a highschool shop teacher? A bit left handed but, my old shop teachers would have thought it a good way to spend an hour after school.

[Bill Snyder]

Might be a good idea, but does your local school district still offer wood shop?
Like has been mentioned by others in other threads a community college might offer wood working classes and have the necessary tools.

[Brett Moore]

I'm in college at Belmont University in Nashville (actually majoring in mandolin performance! but that's another story...) and I've researched all the local community colleges in the surrounding area. None of them seem to have a woodworking program! I've been asking around in my church to see if there are any men with shops/garages full of tools but haven't had much luck there either...*sigh* The journey continues..

[Stephanie Reiser]

This is my shooting board set-up, in this case jointing a guitar top. I recently came across a larger plane of my dad's, and I will restore it and try it out. If I already posted this pic, I apologize for the redundancy.

[Rick Turner]

All this router and cutting through is complicating a pretty easy task. Stanley #5s and #6s can be had for about $100.00. Self stick sand paper and a 5" x 30" length of 1/4" plate glass or a scrap from a granite counter maker could be had for less than $20.00. For that matter, just the self stick paper and the ground cast iron surface of a table saw would do fine. Just make a vertical fence, and you're done.

We run tops first on a jointer and then finish them up on self stick 150 grit on the table of my pin router with a fence. No big deal.

[Rob Grant]

A planed surface (fixed blade), in my experience, is superior for gluing to one that has the fibres roughed and contaminated by sanding.

[Rick Lindstrom]

I think the original poster was looking for a method that didn't use planes or machinery.....

Rick

[Rick Turner]

Yeah, well you can chew the joint perfect, too, if you really want to...This is like asking of you can use a can opener to remove an appendix. Yes, you can... If you can afford to use a computer to ask this question here, you can afford to borrow a hand plane and learn how to use it.

There's a point where you simply have to use the right tools to get a decent job done. If someone doesn't even want to use a hand plane to get a good glue joint, I think they are likely to be SOL on building a playable instrument.

[Stephanie Reiser]

The point about using the right tool for the right job is very important. When I started out building instruments I did not have alot of luthier-specific tools. Such as fret-work, etc. To build playable instruments, as Rick said, you just need certain tools - whether you beg, borrow or buy them. I had build quite a few instruments by walking to my neighbors house to use his magnificent 17" bandsaw. My hand plane is not the best, but it works. I am still planning on restoring that larger plane this summer, but my smaller plane, kept quite sharp, does the trick. I've never used sandpaper to join a plate.

Rick, I enjoyed reading about you in Acoustic Guitar magazine.