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Thread: Question about tremolo.

  1. #1

    Question Question about tremolo.

    Hi all,
    i have started learning mandolin one week ago.
    My studies includes music theory and of course exercise for the mandolin.
    Now i'm able to read note on the staff (standard music notation) and play it, i can also play simple song i would say that i'm doing well, but there are some things that i don't understand.
    I'm studing on several books, one of this is the C. Munier's method.
    Now he calls the picks in two way "staccato" and "tremolo".
    Now the "staccato" is the single touch downstroke, then he talks about the "pennata" which is a full upstroke dowstroke on the strings.
    What i don't understand is the how many string i have to touch when trying the tremolo. Because the mandolin has paired string, when trying the tremolo should i touch both strings on the downstoke and both strings on the upstroke (so i have touched four times the strings) or i should try to only touch the first string with the downstroke and the second string with the upstroke?
    Thanks in advance for any suggestion.

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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nox View Post
    when trying the tremolo should i touch both strings on the downstoke and both strings on the upstroke (so i have touched four times the strings)
    Short answer: yes.

    In general, you want to think of the course (the paired strings) as a single string. One of the reasons a mandolin sounds like a mandolin is that you have those two strings playing. There may be rare exceptions (for example, perhaps if you decided to tune the two strings in a pair diferently) but in general, you want your pick to make both strings ring.

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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    I was taught to play a tremolo by striking both strings with the downstroke and just the bottom string with the upstroke. The theory was that it sounds cleaner because the top string continues ringing when the bottom one's vibration is interrupted by the pick. You don't need a motion as complex as hitting one string down and the other one up; if you adjust the angle of your pick downward relative to the plane of the strings it just happens.

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    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Quote Originally Posted by mclaugh View Post
    I was taught to play a tremolo by striking both strings with the downstroke and just the bottom string with the upstroke. The theory was that it sounds cleaner because the top string continues ringing when the bottom one's vibration is interrupted by the pick. You don't need a motion as complex as hitting one string down and the other one up; if you adjust the angle of your pick downward relative to the plane of the strings it just happens.
    Sounds like a lot of work to deliberately miss the top string but go past it anyway so you can go down through both of them on the ensuing down stroke. And isn't the top string's vibration going to to be interrupted by the pick anyway a quarter to half a beat later?? Also, how do you do a double stopped tremolo?
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Both on the way down, both on the way up. Let 'em ring.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Work on getting the down and upstroke to be of equal volume
    and timing at an equal note value.
    after you have mastered steady ,
    then ... try syncopation .
    and dynamic variation
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

  7. #7

    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Thanks everyone for the reply.
    But now i have other doubts.
    Let me explain my situation.
    When i have started learning the mandolin, i have searched this forum for good learning material, and in several posts i have seen many people suggeting Bert Casey's materials. So i have taken both the dvd and the book.
    The fact is that in each lesson he use downstroke for the first string and upstroke for the second string. I know that those lessons are just for starting up, and that dvd helped me starting up, but now i'm confused. With a normal stroke a dowstroke should i touch always both strings? On the Munier this isn't very clear, and i suppose because as Alex suggested both strings are considered as one string.
    I'm really intersted to classic music, and as i said in the first post i'm also studing music theory in order to read standard music notation.
    But now that i moved studing the Munier i got confused.
    So i few words, which is the correct method?
    Should i always hit both strings even in a single dowstroke or upstroke?
    Regarding the tremolo i'm trying but without great results maybe i should train my upstroke and the try to combine up/down stroke ?

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    The only method book I have ever worked through is Marilynn Mair's, and that after already playing for almost two decades.

    But I don't think there exists a main stream mandolin technique that incorporates hitting one of the strings in the pair. I have always treated the pair of strings as one, single notes, tremolo, triplets, sixteenth notes - and I have never seen a beginners book say differently. I don't remember anything in Mair that suggests otherwise either.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    I doubt that there is only one correct way to play a tremolo. If you listen to professional recordings of classical players and all the way to bluegrass players and all kinds of music inbetween, listening closely to their tremolo's, there is a wide variance in style and "attack." It all comes down to the sound that you want, and the piece of music that you are playing. Quite frankly, as a beginner, when trying to make a tremolo where the sounds are so closely made together that it almost sounds like one sustained tone, I doubt very much that you can get the kind of control to pick two strings down, one string up.

    For now, just concentrate on achieving a smooth pick motion, both up and down, striking both strings, with increasing speed, and practice on it each day. Preferably using a metronome so your up and down strokes are consistently smooth and of the same speed and loudness before moving up to a higher speed.

    A tremolo isn't a technique that is perfected in a week, or a month, or even in a year. After you get the basic tremolo down to your satisfaction, THEN try an advanced technique of two strings down, one string up. THEN try a tremolo using four strings, instead of two, etc. THEN, try how you do the tremolo based on the tempo and style of the song you are playing...slower songs with a slower tremolo, faster songs with a faster tremolo, etc. Or, then try tremolos that have no open strings (all fretted strings), and play an entire song with nothing but a tremolo and no single notes at all!

    What I'm trying to say is that there is a lot of "technique" that goes into a tremolo, and many different ways to play it. Get the basics down, then move on to more complex or "advanced" tremolos. Above all, don't get discouraged. I doubt that there are many on this forum who would not tell you that it took them years of constant practice to really get good with tremolos, so don't expect that you will get good with them either until you have practiced them over and over and over...

    And welcome to mandolins!
    Last edited by Youda; Mar-19-2009 at 2:44pm. Reason: correct and error

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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Sounds like a lot of work to deliberately miss the top string but go past it anyway so you can go down through both of them on the ensuing down stroke. And isn't the top string's vibration going to to be interrupted by the pick anyway a quarter to half a beat later?? Also, how do you do a double stopped tremolo?
    Jim,

    If it required any extra work, I doubt I would be able to do it at tremolo speed. If you adjust your pick angle downward, and don't insert the tip of the pick any deeper than necessary, you have to hit both strings on the way down and would have to work pretty hard to hit both on the way up. Try it and see if you like it.

    Sure, you're going to interrupt the top string again. The point is you interrupt one string half as often as the other, and can get a less staccato sound.

    My classical teacher had a low opinion of tremoloed double stops, because it is difficult to produce a pleasant sound, so he would have recommended against doing it. This being the real world, I dig in and hit 'em all.

    -Tom

  11. #11

    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Think of each pair as one string, don't mke it more complicated than it is. Use a relaxed wrist and a relaxed grip on the pick. Don't dig in, you'll slow yourself down, it's more of a brush stroke. Practice a lot with a metronome, just doing the down ups on one open string (pair) at a time, then move to the next string. I like to play in 2/4 time, so I play 4 notes per beat on the 'nome, count 1-e-and-e per beat. This will all help the tremolo by helping you keep the pulse going.

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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Quote Originally Posted by mclaugh View Post
    My classical teacher had a low opinion of tremoloed double stops
    God only knows what he must have thought of, oh, just about every bluegrass mandolinist ever

    Nox, if you read enough of the posts here, you'll find more people than you can count who are seeking comfort over their struggles to get a really excellent tremolo (if I haven't done it yet myself, then I could sure use some sympathy everyone ) In all seriousness, a strong, consistent tremolo just takes lots of time and patience. Let me emphasize that again...lots of time, practice and patience.

    I've been playing for 2 1/2 years and I'm still working on it. I'm fine on slower songs, but going into a tremolo for a brief burst after playing a string of eighth notes (like Big Mon would always do) ...oh man, forget about it. I may pull it out about fifty percent of the time right now, otherwsie, I crash and burn. Honestly, I'm still hesitant on when and how to use it when improvising in jams. My lack of confidence in my tremolo often leads to a weaker, more inconsistent tremolo than I would like. I won't even talk about double string tremolos. I'm getting better at them, but too often it still sounds like I'm just picking two courses really fast, rather than having that harmonious, unified sound that guys like Compton play so wonderfully.

    IMO, perhaps even more than speed, a good tremolo may be the toughest foundational skill to master on the mandolin. You simply won't get it down in a few weeks. I think it took me around six or seven months (practicing it a little every day) before I felt I could adequately produce a good sounding single string tremolo on slow, set pieces of music.

    Oh, and another thing to remember. After you practice it awhile, you may have a few days where you really have that sucker down...man, you can tremolo!! And then...it'll just dissapear and you'll feel the urge to get really frustrated at yourself for somehow losing the ability you thought you had just acquired. Again, it's going to take time, practice, and patience to get it down consistently. My best advice is to really enjoy the little break throughs and increased feelings of comfort with the technique as you get better at it, but don't ever come down too hard on yourself when it just doesn't seem to be clicking. Actually, that's some good advice for playing music in general...after all, we're doing this for fun.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    The only method book I have ever worked through is Marilynn Mair's, and that after already playing for almost two decades.

    But I don't think there exists a main stream mandolin technique that incorporates hitting one of the strings in the pair. I have always treated the pair of strings as one, single notes, tremolo, triplets, sixteenth notes - and I have never seen a beginners book say differently. I don't remember anything in Mair that suggests otherwise either.
    Hi Jeff i'm sure you are right, in fact Munier talks of 4 "pennate" (1 pennata is a full downstroke and upstroke) for a quarter note
    8 "pennate" for a half note and 16 for the whole note.
    I don't know why, but on the first dvd that i have used all the example are played using downstroke first string upstroke second string, the dvd is this
    Now i'm a bit annoyed, because for about one week i played using this method, and now that i'm beginning the Munier i've discovered that was incorrect. Now i just need to correct this behaviour.
    Anyway can you confirm that the number of upstroke/downstroke for each note that i have posted are ok?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Youda View Post
    I doubt that there is only one correct way to play a tremolo. If you listen to professional recordings of classical players and all the way to bluegrass players and all kinds of music inbetween, listening closely to their tremolo's, there is a wide variance in style and "attack." It all comes down to the sound that you want, and the piece of music that you are playing. Quite frankly, as a beginner, when trying to make a tremolo where the sounds are so closely made together that it almost sounds like one sustained tone, I doubt very much that you can get the kind of control to pick two strings down, one string up.

    For now, just concentrate on achieving a smooth pick motion, both up and down, striking both strings, with increasing speed, and practice on it each day. Preferably using a metronome so your up and down strokes are consistently smooth and of the same speed and loudness before moving up to a higher speed.

    A tremolo isn't a technique that is perfected in a week, or a month, or even in a year. After you get the basic tremolo down to your satisfaction, THEN try an advanced technique of two strings down, one string up. THEN try a tremolo using four strings, instead of two, etc. THEN, try how you do the tremolo based on the tempo and style of the song you are playing...slower songs with a slower tremolo, faster songs with a faster tremolo, etc. Or, then try tremolos that have no open strings (all fretted strings), and play an entire song with nothing but a tremolo and no single notes at all!

    What I'm trying to say is that there is a lot of "technique" that goes into a tremolo, and many different ways to play it. Get the basics down, then move on to more complex or "advanced" tremolos. Above all, don't get discouraged. I doubt that there are many on this forum who would not tell you that it took them years of constant practice to really get good with tremolos, so don't expect that you will get good with them either until you have practiced them over and over and over...

    And welcome to mandolins!
    Thanks, i got your point.
    I will not get discouraged, i was discouraged the first two days when i was not able to move my left hand without watching it. After practicing for several day very very slow, i has been able to fret the strings without watching it. I will follow your advice and i will start using a metronome and i will work on my upstroke/downstroke.
    Let's see what happen

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    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Quote Originally Posted by mclaugh View Post
    Jim,

    If it required any extra work, I doubt I would be able to do it at tremolo speed. If you adjust your pick angle downward, and don't insert the tip of the pick any deeper than necessary, you have to hit both strings on the way down and would have to work pretty hard to hit both on the way up. Try it and see if you like it.

    Sure, you're going to interrupt the top string again. The point is you interrupt one string half as often as the other, and can get a less staccato sound.

    My classical teacher had a low opinion of tremoloed double stops, because it is difficult to produce a pleasant sound, so he would have recommended against doing it. This being the real world, I dig in and hit 'em all.

    -Tom
    Sorry, sounds silly and unnecessary. Hit 'em both on the way down and on the way up. Don't change your pick angle just to accomplish tremolo but rather incorporate it into your overall technique and move into and out of tremolo, single notes and/or double stops, as you see fit within the piece of music you are playing. Practice, and it will be smooth and will not sound staccato.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

    "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann

    "IT'S T-R-E-M-O-L-O, dangit!!"~Me

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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Bunting View Post
    Think of each pair as one string, don't mke it more complicated than it is. Use a relaxed wrist and a relaxed grip on the pick. Don't dig in, you'll slow yourself down, it's more of a brush stroke. Practice a lot with a metronome, just doing the down ups on one open string (pair) at a time, then move to the next string. I like to play in 2/4 time, so I play 4 notes per beat on the 'nome, count 1-e-and-e per beat. This will all help the tremolo by helping you keep the pulse going.
    Thanks for the suggestion, i think i have a good downstroke and i know what you mean with "it's more of a brush stroke", i do my exercise the night when i can't do too much noise, so i quickly developed a soft pick, but only when playing chords and only downstroke. I will start using a metronome and working on the upstroke.

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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    You may want to start practicing on some easy, slow melodies. I think the de facto "beginners tremolo tune" is Amazing Grace. The basic melody is only made up of something like six or seven notes and you can play it (in G) on just the second and third strings (courses) in first position. It'll help you get better at keeping the tremolo going while jumping strings...and it's a pretty melody that most everyone knows. Also, try to combine a few learning exercises. When you're running through a scale, learning and memorizing it, try to just tremolo through it instead of playing the note and moving on.

    Another thing, you may find that you become more comfortable playing tremolo more quickly on certain strings than others. Based on many years of posts that I've read on here, that seems like a normal part of the learning process Some people find it takes forever to get comfortable playing tremolo on the G-string, for others it may be harder to get comfortable playing it on the E-string.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Orr View Post
    You may want to start practicing on some easy, slow melodies. I think the de facto "beginners tremolo tune" is Amazing Grace. The basic melody is only made up of something like six or seven notes and you can play it (in G) on just the second and third strings (courses) in first position. It'll help you get better at keeping the tremolo going while jumping strings...and it's a pretty melody that most everyone knows. Also, try to combine a few learning exercises. When you're running through a scale, learning and memorizing it, try to just tremolo through it instead of playing the note and moving on.

    Another thing, you may find that you become more comfortable playing tremolo more quickly on certain strings than others. Based on many years of posts that I've read on here, that seems like a normal part of the learning process Some people find it takes forever to get comfortable playing tremolo on the G-string, for others it may be harder to get comfortable playing it on the E-string.
    Thanks Alex,
    i don't know the melody, but i found the sheet here in key of G, do you think i can start practicing using that sheet and hearing that mp3?
    Thanks very much for the tips

  19. #19

    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Orr View Post
    God only knows what he must have thought of, oh, just about every bluegrass mandolinist ever

    Oh, and another thing to remember. After you practice it awhile, you may have a few days where you really have that sucker down...man, you can tremolo!! And then...it'll just dissapear and you'll feel the urge to get really frustrated at yourself for somehow losing the ability you thought you had just acquired.


    Oh, do I hear that one! My big bug-a-boo tremolo is when I know that I have to "seamlessly" change chords after the tremolo. That wouldn't be such a big deal, except during the final upstroke, I tend to hit harder in anticipation of the chord change, so it sounds like an extra note in the song. So, the tremolo sounds like la-la-la-la-LA. When I break myself of that one, it will probably be a new bug-a-boo! Other days, I can't do a tremolo at all! Out comes the metronome to practice awhile again. Not to cause a major depression, but I've been playing about 5 years.

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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Hey Nox, for what it is worth, I learned from Marilynn Mair's book. In a separate article she wrote, she talked about it taking as much as a year to learn tremolo. At the time, I didn't believe it, but it really did take that long. I practiced about ten minutes a day just doing tremolo scales and simple tunes in tremolo. I guess my point being if it isn't working well at first, don't worry about. Just keep practicing. It takes times.

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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenwood View Post
    Hey Nox, for what it is worth, I learned from Marilynn Mair's book. In a separate article she wrote, she talked about it taking as much as a year to learn tremolo. At the time, I didn't believe it, but it really did take that long. I practiced about ten minutes a day just doing tremolo scales and simple tunes in tremolo. I guess my point being if it isn't working well at first, don't worry about. Just keep practicing. It takes times.
    Hi,
    can you tell me more about this book?
    it's oriented to blugrass music or to classic music?
    I've saw that is a big book 224 pages, did you find it complete?
    For the tremolo i don't know, i practice for one 1 hour/ 1:30 each day, hope to get a decent tremolo in a couple of months

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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Amazing Grace is one tune the dearly-departed Butch would use as a teaching vehicle for tremble (and he didn't like the minor )

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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanN View Post
    Amazing Grace is one tune the dearly-departed Butch would use as a teaching vehicle for tremble (and he didn't like the minor )
    A couple of other good ones to learn tremolo on and that feature well-known melodies are "When You and I Were Young Maggie" and "Ashokan Farewell". The latter is a bit more challenging but is a really good practice vehicle for learning trem, and it's just a beautiful melody that sounds WONDERFUL on mandolin.

    Oh, actually another easy beginner melody for learning tremolo is "Wayfaring Stranger". Basic melody is pretty simple and straightforward and (if I remember correctly) basically comes right out of the minor pentatonic scale.

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    Dave Keswick Ravenwood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nox View Post
    Hi,
    can you tell me more about this book?
    it's oriented to blugrass music or to classic music?
    I've saw that is a big book 224 pages, did you find it complete?
    For the tremolo i don't know, i practice for one 1 hour/ 1:30 each day, hope to get a decent tremolo in a couple of months
    The book is oriented toward classical music and performance, but its focus is on fundamental techniques and the development of commonly used skills so serves as an excellent basis for any genre. It is definitely not a tunebook. It is made up of exercises in many scales, arpeggios, etc. I've always used it more as a reference than as a lesson book.

    Hope that helps!

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    Default Re: Question about tremolo.

    [QUOTE=Nox;643277]Thanks everyone for the reply.
    But now i have other doubts.
    Let me explain my situation.
    When i have started learning the mandolin, i have searched this forum for good learning material, and in several posts i have seen many people suggeting Bert Casey's materials. So i have taken both the dvd and the book.
    The fact is that in each lesson he use downstroke for the first string and upstroke for the second string. I know that those lessons are just for starting up, and that dvd helped me starting up, but now i'm confused. With a normal stroke a dowstroke should i touch always both strings?

    I think you are misunderstanding Bert Casey's instruction. In his "down up picking" exercises, he teaches to pick down on the down beats(1, 2, 3, 4) and up on the up beats ( all of the &'s) and doesn't deviate from that through the rest of the book. He never says specifically to pick both strings of a pair of strings but I think he assumes this these are bluegrass and old time tunes he is teaching.

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