Jerusalem Ridge-- History?

[man dough nollij]

I'm looking for the next tune I want to learn, and I've perusing the Monroe classics on YouTube to pick the next one.

This is a good clip. It says in the beginning that Bill wrote this tune, but he only plays rhythm/chops on it.

Isn't that sort of strange that he would write a song for fiddle where he only got to play backup? I realize that it can be done the other way, with mandolin doing the melody and fiddle doing the backup, but it struck me as odd.

Never met the guy myself, but he seems to have a reputation as being a rather strong willed, if not ego-driven sort of dude. Not the kind of guy that would write a song where his role was "second fiddle".

Thoughts?

[Mike Bunting]

He wrote fiddle tunes and mandolin tunes. Monroe was an artist and his "strong will" was focussed on creating music, not vehicles to showcase his playing.

[Patrick Gunning]

You can hear Bill play the mandolin part on a number of recordings, including the inimitable "Kenny Baker Plays Bill Monroe." His lead part is much less developed than Kenny's fiddle part, and he doesn't play the "D" part on mando (at least in that recording). I personally suspect Monroe had some of the original song structure, and showed it to Baker, who filled in the rest of the melodic nuance. Bill, as bandleader, and the one cutting Baker's paychecks, was credited as songwriter.

I don't buy for one minute that he wrote the whole fiddle melody.

[mandozilla]

Lee I've heard recordings of WSM picking Jerusalem Ridge and not just chopping rhythm...and it's pretty cool.

Bill wrote tunes with a certain instrument in mind. For example; Rawhide, Kentucky Mandolin, Bluegrass stomp featured primarily the mandolin. Pike County Breakdown, Salt Creek, featured primarily the b**jo, but most of his tunes featured primarily the fiddle. Bill loved the fiddle and fiddle music.

Bill was a very proud man with a 19th century soul...I met Bill twice in my life and you could tell he really valued his fans.

[ralph johansson]

on monroe's original recording pike county breakdown was a mandolin tune.

he did not write salt creek, a k a salt river, which is a traditional
fiddle tune.

jerusalem ridge was written at a hotel in ashland, kentucky, in august 1970. monroe brought the 3rd part and had kenny baker play suggestions for the other parts.

baker came up with many, if not most, of the ideas, and monroe made the decisions. baker insisted they were monroe's ideas, "i don't want credit and i don't expect any".

[evanreilly]

This may be the 'definitive' answer to the authorship question:

[GTG]

I too heard that Baker came up with 'a good chunk' of the melody, but was happy to let Monroe take credit. I can't remember where I read this, tho...

[woodwizard]

That is a GREAT!! tune. Who ever wrote it. One of my favorite Monroe tunes for sure.

[Pete Counter]

I dont understand why this thing keeps going. I've heard Kenny Baker say with his own mouth on several occations that Bill Monroe wrote the song. I know in the old days the band leader got credit for what his guys write and WSM did this as well, but 13 years after monroe's death, Baker hasnt changed his story. I've never even heard him imply any differnt. I dont think he ever will cuz...maybe...just maybe.....Bill did write it. He was known to write a few killer tunes!

[Ivan Kelsall]

IMHO "Jerusalem Ridge" is as synonymous with Bill Monroe as "Rawhide" & for me,it's also a 'better' tune,in that it does seem to invoke images of the area close to Bill Monroe's home in Rosine. I've sort of shied away from the tune until now,thinking that it's not a 'solo' piece (it never was),but i've been putting the sections together for a couple of weeks now & it does work nicely as a 'Mandolin only' tune - whatever, it's one of my very favourite Monroe numbers. It's tuneful,& unlike the 'Mando-thrash' that "Rawhide" often becomes,requires a delicacy in it's playing to get the best from it (purely my thoughts),
Saska

[mandozilla]

It would seem from their remarks that some of the 'Monroe didn't write it' crowd are impyling that Bill was too much of a hayseed to write such a sophisticated piece as Jerusalem Ridge and like to stir the pot on these typres of dicussions.

If Kenny Baker says Bill wrote Jerusalem Ridge, that's good enough for me.

[Patrick Gunning]

Mandozilla, my intention certainly wasn't to call Mr. Monroe a hayseed, and I didn't say he had nothing to do with the song. What I intended to convey was more of a co-writing session, which seems to be the story Ralph related in his anecdote. It'd be pretty hard to argue that as an instrumentalist, Monroe had the melodic nuance of Baker (and I say this with no intent to disparage, Monroe showed his greatness in myriad ways).

If Kenny Baker says Bill wrote Jerusalem Ridge, that's good enough for me.

Ah, but what if Bill Monroe says Kenny Baker wrote the tune? I present Exhibit A, Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys live in Eugene, OR in 1977. To quote:

"It's time now for Kenny Baker to fiddle for you, and he's picked out a number I hope you will enjoy. It's one of his great numbers, he has it in one of his albums, and it's entitled "Jerusalem Ridge"
-Bill Monroe (1977)

Kenny goes on to play the song, with no break from Bill. I've attached the .mp3 of that moment, plus Kenny's excellent playing on a fantastic-sounding soundboard feed. I almost prefer this cut to his album version. If you want the full set (which I highly recommend, it sounds better than some of Bill's studio records), it can be downloaded here.

*stirs pot, watches come to slow boil*

[Patrick Gunning]

The more I think about this, the more I find it hilarious. Bill says Kenny wrote the tune, Kenny says Bill wrote it. It's sort of like two old friends arguing about who will treat the other to dinner or something...

[mandozilla]

"It's time now for Kenny Baker to fiddle for you, and he's picked out a number I hope you will enjoy. It's one of his great numbers, he has it in one of his albums, and it's entitled "Jerusalem Ridge"

By saying that one could say that Bill was indeed saying that Kenny wrote Jerusalem Ridge. On the other hand he could merely be stating that Jerusalem Ridge is one of the tunes Kenny plays the best!

In the final analysis, who cares really? And what does it matter? It's a beautiful tune so lets all have fun playing it and just enjoy it.

[Fretbear]

Here is my version...I'm playing the lead guitar parts and full mandolin break in the middle...I think it's his best tune, even considering the Master of Bluegrass LP.....

[man dough nollij]

I didn't even know about the Baker/ Monroe controversy when I posted this thread, and I don't really care too much about that.

My question was more why a mandolin virtuoso would write a song for fiddle, and perform it in his band, with his only contribution some chop/chop?

I have heard somewhere (here) that mandolin was not Bill's first choice of instrument-- he just kinda got stuck there.

How good was Bill as a fiddler? Is it possible that he wrote the tune for fiddle, then just handed it off to his fiddle player? I've personally never seen footage of Mr. Monroe playing fiddle, but I'm coming in late, and not that knowledgeable about this "legends of Bluegrass" stuff.

I suppose there's the possibility that he wrote for fiddle, but by way of the structure of the band, never performed it on fiddle. Eh?

[mandozilla]

with his only contribution some chop/chop?

Again Lee, only tonight I heard BM & his BGB's recording where Bill played the A & B parts but not the C part...And did a mighty fine job of it too I might add.

I have heard somewhere (here) that mandolin was not Bill's first choice of instrument

That's true. Charlie got the guitar, Birch got the fiddle, and Bill got stuck with the mandolin.

How good was Bill as a fiddler?

From what I heard, not real good...but that's OK, because of all these things, we have Bluegrass Music and a wonderful style of mandolin playing to study and enjoy.

[ralph johansson]

I dont understand why this thing keeps going. I've heard Kenny Baker say with his own mouth on several occations that Bill Monroe wrote the song. I know in the old days the band leader got credit for what his guys write and WSM did this as well, but 13 years after monroe's death, Baker hasnt changed his story. I've never even heard him imply any differnt. I dont think he ever will cuz...maybe...just maybe.....Bill did write it. He was known to write a few killer tunes!

you don't understand? someone asked a question and i gave the answer because i know it - and i have never seen it given on the cafe. i've searched.
there are those who believe that monroe's own words are the final truth and there are those who knew someone who knew baker and knew he brought it fully composed to the group, etc.


i thought the purpose of a forum was to share knowledge and information but it seems i was mistaken. i hoped to share some insight into monroe's working methods.

as for baker not changing his story, this happens to be his story, told to mark o'connor, and published in 1993, in the insert to the cd "heroes". so if you're accusing anyone of lying i do not want credit.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From what i've heard /read,Bill Monroe wasn't bothered about being the 'star player' in the Band,it was enough for him that he was the 'BOSS'. I believe he was more interested in 'the sound' of his band & if that meant coming up with a tune for any instrument other than the Mandolin,that was fine.We all know thet he greatly admired his Uncle Pen for his fine fiddle playing & i personally believe that the Fiddle was Monroe's 'favourite' instrument.He used to use twin fiddles when he could get them & more if possible on occasion. It seems entirely in keeping with his outlook that he could come up with a tune (or the basics) & let Kenny Baker add his own touches to it. As long as it turned out the way Monroe wanted,i think that would be just fine with him. Bill Monroe might have had his sour points,but supressing the talent of his band members wasn't one of them - if they shone,so did his entire band,
Saska

[evanreilly]

In my not-so-humble opinion, I agree with John Hartford's analysis of Bill Monroe's relationship to the fiddle. Hartford called Monroe a great old-time fiddle player who happened to play the mandolin (listen to "The Cross-eyed Child"). I have some live recordings where Bill states he likes the Blue Grass and other music, but really loves playing old-time fiddle tunes. He clearly was a fiddle player at heart and adapted to the mandolin.
As far as writing tunes for various instruments, Bill probably wrote more 'fiddle tunes' than instrumentals for all the other instruments.

And, for kicks, who has heard the tune he wrote for Trombone and mandolin?

And, just because I can, I am sharing a live version of WSM playing all four (4!!!) parts of Jerusalem Ridge. Brought to you courtesy of the other mandolin player on the cut.
Listen carefully!

[TMitchell]

That's a terrific version of JR on your site, Fretbear. Thanks for sharing.

[earthsave]

Heck all he did was take 12 tones and put in a pleasing order. It's not like he created a new note or something.

[foggyvalley]

I to had heard the history as a tune Mr. Monroe wrote about a area around the old homestead. Great tune, played fast or slow. My wife and I did a mando/fiddle duet of is slow in church last week,most appreciated it

[Chris Wofford]

Yes, but without Monroe those notes would never have been played in such a hard driving way with that high lonesome sound.

[Mike Bunting]

I
My question was more why a mandolin virtuoso would write a song for fiddle, and perform it in his band, with his only contribution some chop/chop?
Eh?

Why not?