Gibson Mandola scale length

[HoGo]

Hello Folks.
Anyone knows exact scale length of vintage Gibson mandola?
I asked three persons and got four different numbers. :-)
I'd love to hear first-hand measurements. Nut to 12th fret.
Thanks!

[James Sanford]

I am currently building an H5 copy based on Siminoff's plans.

The scale length is 194mm from front of nut to c/l of 12th fret.

Hope this helps.

[Dave Cohen]

The length I have always heard, and the one which was given in Lawrence Smart's 1998 article in American Lutherie (#56), is 15.75", which would be 200.0 mm from the nut to the center of the 12th fret.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

[brunello97]

You two gentleman have about a 3/8 inch discrepancy in your lengths. What to do?

Mick

[HoGo]

That's it... now I have fifth differnt number :-).
Friend wants to have a template cut on CNC and asked if I can find the exact length. I wouldn't trust Siminoff as his new F-5 mandolin plans and book are wrong (quite funny thing from a Loar owner).
I hoped someone like Gail Hester who works on these instruments regularly would have the answer.

[Dave Cohen]

I just looked back at Lawrence Smart's American Lutherie #56 article. He actually listed 15 27/32" for the scale length of a 1912 H4. That number is 15.844", or 402.4 mm, which is longer than the Siminoff figure by a slightly greater amount than even the 15.75" figure I gave in my post above. However, given that the usual figure quoted is 15.75", I am inclined to think that Smart's 1912 H4 scale length included compensation, and 15.75" or 400 mm is closer to historically accurate.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

[James Sanford]

I am confused.

If there is doubt about this scale length why doesn't someone measure an instrument and confirm it one way or the other? Or, is there variance in the scale length of these instruments? If there is variance then I guess there is no such thing as "standard scale length" for Gibson mandolas.

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Tim W]

There is a modern Gibson mandola and it sounds awesome, hanging in Mitch Simpsons store in Cornelia, GA. If you can wait, even though it ain't vintage, I'll ride up there and measure it and post it here. Howz that for service?

I played that two weeks ago and liked it so much I want to ride up and do it again before someone buys it. I'm going to build an F5 and would love to build a mandola to match. Stay tuned...

[Bernie Daniel]

I am sure there are many of us on the Mandolin Cafe who have a Gibson mandola. I have one and I'll measure it and report on it when I get home tonight. I suggest other members do the same. Won't that solve the problem?

[James Sanford]

To further muddy the water or perhaps clear it a little I remeasured Siminoff's drawings. This time I used the drawing of the fretboard rather than the overall layout of the mandola.

The fretboard drawing shows 200mm from nut to outside edge of the 12th fret(bridge side).

The thick plottens.

[Bernie Daniel]

OK.

For your information the following measurements applies to my 1912 Gibson H-1 mandola:

nut to 12 fret = 200 mm
nut to bridge (between D and A courses) = 398 mm

[Tim W]

I drove the 110 miles to Mitch's store and the Gibson H5 mandola was gone. I was looking forward to measuring it but things evidently don't hang around long on his wall.

[bennyb]

Howdy all,
Looking at my Siminoff H5 dola drawings on page H5-3(also referred to as drawing #3), Roger says "This fret scale is calculated for a 15-5/8"(actually 15.650") scale length." On the same page, he says "Use the dimensions provided in this drawing #3, do not measure from the drawings." The one dola I've made, not an h5, I used a 16.05" scale length: sounds good, fits my hands, but the C strings are a little bit floppy.

My best, benny

[Bernie Daniel]

Some updated information.

I decided to tune up my H-1 last night as I was wondering why the distance of nut to the 12th fret was slightly longer then the 12th to the bridge.

Sure enough the intonation was off. Moving the bridge to exactly 400 mm was all it took it is now in as near perfect intonation as I can make it.

So again 1912 Gibson H-1 mandola:

nut to 12th = 200 mm
12th to bridge = 200 mm
nut to bridge = 400 mm (this is just short of 15 3/4 inches )

(Using an aluminum straight edge calibrated to 1/32 I tried to get an "exact" measure and it was a bit less than 15 24/32 inches -- so make it 15 47/64 inches and take that with a grain of salt)

[siminoff]

Ever wonder why Gibson’s string scales were unusual measurements? For example, the F5 fretscale reported at 13-15/16˝ rather than 14˝, the H5 at 15-5/8˝ rather than 15-1/2˝ or 16˝? At any particular point in time, many of Gibson’s string scales (with some model exception) were based on the same longer calculation such that many fretboard styles could be taken from the same overall length to enable gang sawing. If you lay a 1924 F5 fretboard next to a 1924 H5 fretboard and line up the zero fret of the F5 board to the H5’s second fret, all of the upper fretslots will be line up identically. In essence, the H5’s scale is an extension of the F5’s scale. The F5’s scale is actually 13.943˝ - the H5’s scale is 15.650˝ (397.51mm). Run a fretscale calculation of both and check the common intervals (there is a free fretscale calculator download on my web site at http://www.siminoff.net/pages/siminoff_downloads.html).

James - thanks for re-checking the drawing. As you found, Drawing #18 of the overall mandola shows the fretboard at reduced length because it was drawn in orthographic projection (the fretboard viewed at an angle). The fretboard drawing (#3) is straight on.

Bernie - I’m not terribly surprised that your 1912 H1 is different from the H5. The early A1/F1/H1 fretscales are different from those used on the 1924 period Master Models. For example, lay a 1924 F5 fretboard on an early A1 – they don’t match up.

Good thread, all…

[James Sanford]

Ever wonder why Gibson’s string scales were unusual measurements? For example, the F5 fretscale reported at 13-15/16˝ rather than 14˝, the H5 at 15-5/8˝ rather than 15-1/2˝ or 16˝? At any particular point in time, many of Gibson’s string scales (with some model exception) were based on the same longer calculation such that many fretboard styles could be taken from the same overall length to enable gang sawing. If you lay a 1924 F5 fretboard next to a 1924 H5 fretboard and line up the zero fret of the F5 board to the H5’s second fret, all of the upper fretslots will be line up identically. In essence, the H5’s scale is an extension of the F5’s scale. The F5’s scale is actually 13.943˝ - the H5’s scale is 15.650˝ (397.51mm). Run a fretscale calculation of both and check the common intervals (there is a free fretscale calculator download on my web site at http://www.siminoff.net/pages/siminoff_downloads.html).

James - thanks for re-checking the drawing. As you found, Drawing #18 of the overall mandola shows the fretboard at reduced length because it was drawn in orthographic projection (the fretboard viewed at an angle). The fretboard drawing (#3) is straight on.

Bernie - I’m not terribly surprised that your 1912 H1 is different from the H5. The early A1/F1/H1 fretscales are different from those used on the 1924 period Master Models. For example, lay a 1924 F5 fretboard on an early A1 – they don’t match up.

Good thread, all…

I Appreciate your clarification re Gibson scale length.

Re the initial measurement, the drawing had orthographic projection written all over it and in my haste I did not notice.

The drawing set is great.

[HoGo]

Ever wonder why Gibson’s string scales were unusual measurements? For example, the F5 fretscale reported at 13-15/16˝ rather than 14˝, the H5 at 15-5/8˝ rather than 15-1/2˝ or 16˝? At any particular point in time, many of Gibson’s string scales (with some model exception) were based on the same longer calculation such that many fretboard styles could be taken from the same overall length to enable gang sawing. If you lay a 1924 F5 fretboard next to a 1924 H5 fretboard and line up the zero fret of the F5 board to the H5’s second fret, all of the upper fretslots will be line up identically. In essence, the H5’s scale is an extension of the F5’s scale. The F5’s scale is actually 13.943˝ - the H5’s scale is 15.650˝ (397.51mm). Run a fretscale calculation of both and check the common intervals

The Master Model brochure specified 13 15/16" scale but back then a length from nut to saddle was considered a "scale length" i.e it included compensation. Actual distance from nut to 12th fret on Loars was 6.938" ('24 Loar) which is exact half of 13 7/8" what we call scale length today. Addition of two frets to this would lead to 15.57" mandola scale which is shorter than almost all numbers stated so far.
So why all the confusion?
Anyone have an Gbson H-5 at hand to measure for us, please?

[Bernie Daniel]

HoGo:Actual distance from nut to 12th fret on Loars was 6.938" ('24 Loar) which is exact half of 13 7/8" what we call scale length today.

Could you please clarify the proper way to measure from the nut to the 12th fret -- and the more problematic nut to bridge?

I always used to think it was from center (lateral dimension) to the fret but I guess its from the point (lower edge) at which the string "departs" from the nut?

I say that as the distance from the lower edge of the nut to the 12th fret on my 2002 Fern is 6.937" -- I guess that is pretty close to the number you gave.


So I have to appologize for my earlier measurement on the 1912 Gibson H-1 -- when repeat this procedure on the mandola i.e., I measure from the lower edge of the nut to the 12th it is 198.5 mm which is 7.815 inches.

(NB: I do not have the ideal way of making this measurment and there maybe be some parallax error in that number because on one of the three measurements this morning I called out as 199 mm or 7.835")

Best I can do with equipment at hand and my trifocals!!!

But the part that always cause confusion I think is how do you pick the "correct" point on a compensated bridge to measure from?

[HoGo]

Thanks Bernie for the numbers.
Bernie it should be measured from inner edge of nut where strings leave it to center of 12th fret crown. Best measured along centerline of fingerboard. also there is large number of instruments where the fingerboard was not trimmed at the right spot thus leaving the first fret space longer or shorter than calculated distance. More often longer. You could measure center of 12th to center of 1st fret and multiply the distance by 12th root of number 2 (calculated as 2 to the power of 1/12) which will give you distance from nut to 12th. But of course on old Gibsons you would have to average several such measurements to find out scale length as the are often errors in fret positions on vintage Gibsons (Loars included).
The distance from 12th to bridge will be slightly longer as there is need for compensation for better tuning in higher positions. Measuring scale length with compensation included won't tell you much as the amount of compensation needed varies with gauge of strings and action etc.

[mandroid]

I add a data point backing 20cm for 8va Half of H scale
my Greg Biller made in Michigan H5 (sort of) made to Gibson spec
has whole scale length of a nice even 0.4M



Fractional converters use your favorite factional formula ..

[David Collins]

Yes, the face of the nut / leading edge of the fretboard, to the center of the 12th fret is what to measure. Multiplied by 2 this will give you the scale length, or at least the most common and widely accepted definition of scale length today. No need to measure the bridge to find scale length, as it's position is more determined by the scale length rather than the other way around. All the information you need should be in the fretboard itself.

It's no surprise to hear 3 or more different numbers for a scale length, even if given for the same instrument. There are several definitions of scale length in use today by different manufacturers and sources. Some I would consider more a misuse of the term, though they come from sources so prominent that it may be hard to simply brush them off as such. Others, even though conflicting with each other, still have merit as alternate definitions that I feel worthy of their own definitions that distinguish one's use from another's. Depending on what definition you use though, what reference points you gauge from, and what instrument you are measuring, it is easy to come up with many different numbers for the same instrument.

Gibson instruments prove especially troublesome because they did not (and in large part still don't) use the same linear 2^(1/12) spacing system that the rest of the world has adopted. Until the 40's they did not even use a linear system at all, so you can get terribly wide estimates of their intentions depending on what frets you reference from.

That's largely an academic historical survey however, without a tremendous amount of practical application today. I hope to have a paper ready on this by the end of the year (not sure where I'll submit for publication yet), but still have a number of gaps in data to be collected, and a lot of evaluation left to do. In practical terms though, nut to 12th fret x2 (what I would call "relative scale length") is what's most important, and being familiar with Roger's work and research I'd feel comfortable saying his data here is the most accurate and practical for what you need to know. I wish I had a few Gibson mandola measurements to help more, but unfortunately my database is currently lacking there. I'm sure I'll have some in the coming months, though that does little good for you now.

[jody_cruzan]

Hi Mr. Hogo,
Strong statement about the Siminoff, f5 plans and book being "wrong". Can you be more specific?

Thanks
Jody

[HoGo]

Strong statement about the Siminoff, f5 plans and book being "wrong". Can you be more specific?

I meant the scale length used in the book (and plans) is not "historically correct".
He states that Loars used 13 15/16" scale lehgth and that's what he uses for fret space calculations. But Loars were 13 7/8" scale length (all without compensation).

[Rob Grant]

Given modern tuner technology is it really worth splitting millimetres or archaic inches to determine the "holey grail" of mandola string length. The products of Kalamazoo are an excellent starting point, but in reality the possible variations in string length for a mandola are numerous within the definition of the instrument. Apart from intonation errors, why quibble about a 16th of an inch when it comes to string length. As I recall a mandola can have an s.l. from roughly between 15 and 19 inches and still sound just as sweet.