How important is a bone nut to the sound?

[shiloh]

Hi everyone,
I have a wonderful little flat Weber Aspen 2 that has a sort-of plastic looking nut. It's actually sort of square, and the corners of the nut can be sharp when playing on the first fret (esp. on the E string).

Does a bone nut make much of a difference? This is an easy mandolin to play with a nice setup. The tone is "fine" I guess as it is. But would a bone nut make it much better in tone? I'm clueless.

Thanks.
Jill

[Tim2723]

Hi Jill,

There are lots of opinions on this and a couple of schools of thought. From my own experience, I would recommend correcting the sharp edges of the existing nut if that's your only complaint.

Many players report an improvement by changing the nut material. However, it is seldom clear whether the new material has made the improvement or whether the act of replacing the nut corrected some pre-existing problems.

As to improvements in tone, that is arguable. I have yet to receive any reasonable explanation as to why changing the material of the nut would have any tonal effect on fretted strings. Open strings, yes, but not fretted strings. Many claim to have experienced it, and I don't deny them their opinion, but I have never gotten a good explanation for it.

[Big Joe]

This is a hard question to answer. It depends upon several factors. What sound do you want? Sometime a bone nut will give you that, sometimes you need a pearl nut, or sometimes a fossil ivory nut helps. There are other materials that have been used over the years, but they have more drawbacks than benefits. Plastic is functional but that is about all I can say for it. I would rather have just about any solid material as to have a plastic nut.

Then again, the mandolin it is going on can make a difference. A really bad mandolin may not be helped as much with a different nut.....or it may be a major difference. The only way to know is to try. If you don't notice a major difference you are out a little money but have a nice nut . If it does help, you are out a little money but you will know it was worth it. Usually al good luthier can check your mandolin out, talk to you about what you are looking for and then make a recommendation as to the material you may wish to use. They should also be able to tell you if there are other issues that need addressing more than the nut or if the exchange will help at all.

[shiloh]

Thanks guys. All good points and valid opinions. At the least I need to address the sharp edges. The other thing I've noticed is how deep the slots are in the nut. Wouldn't that affect the string vibration?

Big Joe, my Gibson F5 which you set up continually receives comments from everyone who plays and hears it that "this is the easiest playing and loudest, best sounding mandolin I've ever played." This is a good opportunity to thank you again. Which leads to another thought - why does a mandolin sound better (?) when it is played a lot (vs. sitting in the case most of the time) ?

Jill

[Folkmusician.com]

The depth of the string grooves are only an issue if they are pinching the strings (and often this would be the case). If they have a V to them and the bottom of the groove is a good fit, then it basically just looks bad, but shouldn't hurt the tone. I still like to see the top of the nut taken off though.

[Big Joe]

Hey Jill...Did not realize it was you who was posting . An instrument that is played sounds better than one that is left in the case for pretty simple reasons. Any piece of tone wood that vibrates often will tend to respond better. You have a tendency to play it more often and you are more aware of its situation and needs. An instrument left in a case does not get opportunity to vibrate or allow the natural process of air drying to occur. This does not let it "breathe" is as good a term as I can find. Most of us get better with practice or use....the same for a good mandolin.

On the other hand, a bad instrument will not get better by playing it. Only a reasonably good mandolin does. As my momma always said, junk is as junk does . You can always improve an instrument if you are willing to put enough into it, but there is a point of diminished returns. A bad instrument reaches that point very quickly.

Thank you and have a GREAT DAY!!!

[Ivan Kelsall]

If it's a Weber,i would imagine that the nut is already bone. A bone nut can look 'plasticy' sometimes.I remember making a bone nut for an Antoria 5-string Banjo that i had years back,only to find that ' plastic' the nut i'd just removed was actually bone,polished enough to make it look like it was plastic. Before you do anything,check with Weber,
Ivan

[Tim2723]

Jill, on re-reading my first post I hope I didn't sound confrontive. It's not that these changes don't happen, it's that we lack absolute scientific explanations as to why. As Joe points out, there are a great many variables involved and musical instruments are far more complex machines than they appear to be. To find unrefutable scientific proof of why something happens the way it does is very difficult.

Ivan makes a good point also. Your Weber is a high quality instrument and the nut is not likely to be a cheap bit of plastic. It might just look shiny.

You might be interested in running a search here for the terms 'Opening up' and 'Waking up'. Those phenomenae are commonly experienced with mandolins, although again we don't have a perfect and complete understanding of all the mechanisms involved.

[300win]

I've recently got a bone nut installed on my A-9. Big Joe you told me that they have plastic, but the original one chipped like it was bone, but one of the guys on here said it was probably made from the same stuff counter tops are made of. Anyway, I took it to a local banjo set-up man, who's name I will not mention, he put a bone nut on it. After playing a couple of days, and really getting on it hard in a band situation Sunday evening, I noticed a buzz on the E's and A's. Looking over the nut closely I noticed that the groves were cut really deep, and under a magnifiying glass they were not rounded or cut toward the headstock as it is supposed to be, this after a price of $60. Well Monday I went to the store and purchased a set of torch tip cleaning files, a tool I've used before to cut string slots, cost $5.50, came back home lossened the strings, filed the top of nut down and polished it to make it look more professional, and recut the nut slots, problem solved, no more buzzing. It did make a differance on my mandolin on the open strings, louder and clearer tone. I just wished that I had not took it to the "luthier?", saved myself $54.50, and been a much happier camper about it all. Kind of disappointed with the work this so called pro did, who has worked on Earl Scruggs, J.D. Crowes, banjos etc, plus Tony Rice's guitar, according to him that is. Now I wonder about all that. I've made bone nuts before, and also a bone saddle for my guitar, they worked fine. The only reason I didn't do it this time is because my cheap torch files in ther small gauges had worn out. Ah as the saying goes, live and learn. I should have known better. About 6 years ago I took a banjo I had to the same person, the neck was a little off, he did repair that, but he did some other stuff to my banjo also that I did not request and it took me two whole days to get it back to cracking again, when I picked it up it sounded like a wash tub, his prefered sound in a banjo. Again I will mention no names. But I will say this, no more of my instrument needs are going to the guy. Just wanted to share this with everyone. As far as a bone nut making a differance in sound, yes I agree on the open strings it does, if properly made.

[300win]

Oh yea I just remembered, this same guy told me that a fossil ivory, or mother of pearl nut acts much like sandpaper, cuts the strings over time, and as you tune up or down the strings cut deeper into the nuts made of these items. What say Big Joe?, I trust your answers on this. Just wished I had the funds to send you any work I needed on my instruments. Still thinking about the D-35 work I private mailed you about 3 weeks or so ago. thanks for any reponse.

[Big Joe]

I guess he is entitled to his opinion.....these materials have been used by the top pros for decades and have no issues with the strings wearing out from nut issues...unless there is an improper nut job doing the work . A well fit, well slotted nut of bone, ivory, or pearl will not give premature wear to your strings. The strings may give wear to the nut material over time, but nuts are like brakes on a car. They are a wear item and do need changing from time to time. That being said, there are many nuts that have lasted 50-100 years without having to be removed. It has to do with the quality of the ivory, bone, or pearl used, the quality of the job installing and setting them up, and the technique of the player.

One of the most instrumental issues on a stringed instrument is the nut material. Right along with that is saddle material and bridge bass. They make direct contact with the string and may affect tone more than just about anything else. With any stringed instrument, the final tone is the result of the whole and not just one single thing, but if those things which touch the string are substandard, it really does not matter how good the rest is because it will never perform at its best until those issues are corrected. That is one reason a really good pro setup will make such a difference on a mandolin. It allows the entire instrument to work together at its optimum level. This gives that instrument the very best tone and playability it can give.

I hope this answers your question. Thank you.

[Dale Ludewig]

I really wish that people would identify themselves on this site. Hiding behind a "handle" is hiding behind a handle. Scott's already started the ball rolling, but I wish everyone would cooperate. Anything less is kind of ???????????

[shiloh]

Hi all,
I took the little Weber Aspen to a luthier here (in San Diego). The folks there have done great work over the many years they have been in business, including some high-profile acoustic fretted instruments. One of the first things they noticed/said was regarding the nut being of some sort of plastic material and its somewhat strange shape and sharp edges. I elected to have them replace the current nut (on the mandolin, not me ) with a bone nut. I'll pick up the little Aspen next week so I'm eager to check it all out. The action and tone and playability was fine even with a plastic nut. ("If it ain't broke, don't fix it") but the whole idea of this weird little nut (again, on the mando, not me) was just, well, bugging me. Hopefully the change will be an improvement. But thankfully it is not a huge investment should a different nut make little or no change.

Tim, no offense taken. I really appreciate you guys chiming in. We all have our sphere of experiences and I learn so much from the Cafe.
BTW, I heard from the good folks at STE/Weber and they affirmed that the Aspen was indeed made with a bone nut. What would cause someone to change? Hmm. Don't know.
Blessings,
Jill

[Tim2723]

Jill, I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the mandolin was originally supplied with a bone nut and then someone changed it for plastic? That seems rather an odd thing to do, doesn't it?

[shiloh]

Tim, right. That seems to be the situation. According to Weber the mandolin would have been made with a bone nut. I know, it's a mystery for sure!
Jill

[FatBear]

I know this is an old thread, but it would be a lot more useful if the outcome were posted. Jill, did the new bone nut make a difference? Also, who was the luthier you took it to? Thanks, --Brian

[shiloh]

Hi FatBear,
Yes, it's been awhile since this post. I did have the nut replaced by a reputable luthier in our area. He agreed that the nut was not bone. It's odd - I feel certain that the good folks at Weber must have built this mandolin using a bone nut. I am not the original owner so who knows what transpired prior to my owning it? But one would think there would be no reason for someone to replace the original with a lesser material?

So, although I am not positive that the nut was not bone, I had it replaced. This is such a great mandolin I wanted to keep in line with quality material.

The result is, I noticed only a slight difference in the tone (better) after the bone nut was in place. And having them perform a better set-up might be a large part of the tone difference (bridge location, etc). I completely agree with what Big Joe said above - this is a great instrument, well made by Weber so I was happy to invest a little money into a bone nut on the chance that it would improve its tone even more. This mandolin has always sounded very good so, frankly, I can't tell much difference!

Each time I play this mandolin I have someone come up to me and tell me how great it sounds. Was it the new nut? Well, hard to say but that certainly is part of the equation.

Regarding the luthier, I took it to the guys at The Blue Guitar in San Diego. If you live in SoCal, I highly recommend them, and I also recommend Chris Camp (in North San Diego County). In fact, I found Chris because the Collings folks in Austin recommend him. For most of my work now (including my 100 year old banjo) I have Chris do the work.

Hope that helps.

Jill

[Grommet]

It is pretty easy to identify bone vs plastic if you can remove the strings or preferably the nut. Just touch it briefly to your moistened lip. Uncoated bone will stick to your lip, plastic will not.

Scott

[multidon]

To I believe the key is that the nut has to be made of something very hard, heavy, and dense. Violins have used ebony for centuries with success, so I don't think there's anything magical about bone other than it is hard, dense, and readily available. The fact that many are successful with fossil ivory and mother of pearl proves that bone is not magical. Common cheap molded plastic nuts that you find on cheapos is neither hard nor dense. Many mandolinists shudder at the thought of ANY sort of "synthetic" material for nuts, but many modern guitar luthiers have had great success with TUSQ and micarta. Gibson uses Corian on some VERY pricy Les Paul guitars. I have a Historic Les Paul from the Custom Shop with a Corian nut that originally cost over $3500. Should I feel that I have been cheated by the big G because they used a plastic nut on my expensive guitar? I have no idea why these synthetic bone substitutes could not be used with success on mandolins, other that the ultra-traditionalist anti-"plastic" attitudes of many mandolinists. Maybe one of you could explain why I am wrong?

[UsuallyPickin]

Everything makes a difference ... density of material ... the size of that difference is always open to debate .... hooray for the Cafe and like Forums ... it gives us something to talk about and somewhere to do it... all the little differences do mout up to different tone ... and experimenting with them is half the fun .... and feeds our luthier friends... Is it absolutely necessary ... probably not. Density of material does however make " a " difference in transfering vibrations .... 1. plastic and other polymers 2. bone 3. ivory 4. mother of pearl ..... ebony is used on violins ..... some of the older models used ivory... enjoy the chase..... R/

[Mike Bunting]

It makes a difference if you like the sound of an instrument with a bone nut, it makes no difference if you like the sound of an instrument with a pearl nut.

[Capt. E]

When I got my Gibson A-00 it had an ebony nut and when I replaced it with a bone nut I saw some improvement, however, it may have been due more to better cut slots and a subtle adjustment in height than anything else. I agree that the accuracy with which the nut is cut and installed has more of an effect than the material it is made from.

[Dobe]

[QUOTE=multidon;1067743]....TUSQ and micarta. Gibson uses Corian on some....

I'm a big Corian/Micarts user, easy to work & quite dense enough; although I like pearl for mando nuts.

[mandroid]

why does a mandolin sound better (?) when it is played a lot (vs. sitting in the case most of the time) ?

maybe the player's chops get rusty, a bit?