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Thread: recording interface/preamp

  1. #1
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    Default recording interface/preamp

    will 40 to 45 dB gain (preamp) be adequate for a KSM 32 into a mac ibook? i'm being careful as it seems that many have trouble with less than 75 dB +/- on many mics.
    my calculations say it SHOULD work. Presonus say's KSM 27 will work. but... i am still skeptical after what i have found out in forums, etc..
    so before i buy, i want to be sure. i have done some research, will do more, but for now am looking for experienced opinion here from those who do this regularly.

    jonathan reinhardt

  2. #2
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: recording interface/preamp

    My $.02... it might be okay with that one mic, with your current setup into the ibook, and if you place the mic fairly close (mandolins being one of the quieter instruments to record).

    I wouldn't personally be comfortable with a preamp that topped out at 45db gain. It's not so much that this amount of gain isn't useful... I often record somewhere around that level. But I don't want the circuit to be maxed out with no headroom, unless I'm intentionally choosing that for a semi-distorted flavor... and that only works (in my experience) with the more expensive preamps, and seldom for acoustic instruments.

    I like to see at least 60db gain as a minimum spec for general use, unless it's something very specialized like a high-end $2,000+ tube preamp, where it's difficult to get high gain due to the nature of the circuit. 70+ db gain is even better if you can get it, for more distant mic techniques (room mics), or certain ribbon mics. A preamp that can do at least 60db gain maxed out, can be ramped down to 40-50db and it will likely sound cleaner and more transparent at that level... which is usually the goal with acoustic music. Some preamps are designed to be pushed hard for certain effects, but you really have to know what you're doing with those.

    FWIW, I just did some recording this afternoon with a trio I play in (fiddle, guitar, mandolin). I had a stereo mic up at a distance for room sound, and that was running 60db gain. I had two small diaphragm condenser mics on fiddle and guitar, placed about 18" away, both running around 50db gain on a preamp that's spec'd for 70 db max. I had a ribbon mic on my mandolin at about the same distance, running at 57db gain on a preamp spec'd for 83db max. I was running somewhere in the neighborhood of -3 to -6db so I didn't clip the converters on my computer interface. None of the preamps were working at their maximum level; I was aiming for the sweet spot for tone. These are expensive preamps, but it isn't that difficult to find good entry-level pre's with at least 60db gain.

    Which Presonus preamp are you looking at? Maybe there's something else in the price range that would work better. Also, beware of anything with a tube in it, at a low price point. Those are "starved plate" designs that don't do what a real, high voltage tube circuit can do.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: recording interface/preamp

    If you only need a couple inputs, the Apogee Duet will be difficult to beat. Clean preamps with enough gain for ribbons and really good converters. I also have a presonus preamp when I need more channels and my 50+ year old ears can hear a significant difference between the two. With condenser mics, I still have to have my Presonus FireStudio 26 preamps turned close to all the way up (maybe 3/4 of the way) to get a good strong signal for acoustic guitars/mandolins. The Apogee pres and converters are really excellent if you can get by with 2 channels. The Apogee Ensemble has 8 channels of converters/4 pres but it's pricey.

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    Default Re: recording interface/preamp

    Thank you both. After looking for a solution, the Apogee Duet has become my first choice at present, Don. While not the price point of other equipment in it's category, it has quality features that justify that. The Presonus gear seems to be problematic for some, and I would probably be one of those due to my inexperience. Several other firewire and usb interfaces also seem to only allow for 40 - 45 dB gain, although like the Apogee, there ARE those with more.
    I had wanted to find a relatively inexpensive way to start learning this process, as I will not be able to afford studio time this year. It looks like I have much more research to do. That will include looking at separate components as well as interface/preamp combinations.
    Yes, I will be only be using the KSM 32 for the time being. But it will be for both mandolin and vocal. I calculate (perhaps erroneously) that it will require a minimum of 6dB gain. And yet from what I have read. and now from your experience foldedpath, it seems naive to believe that.
    Also am interested in your running at -3 to -6 dB? In an ideal world, clipping etc. aside, isn't +4dB a standard? Or again, more naivete?
    And lastly, I am thinking of Spruce's suggestion a while back that one just try the computer's internal mic. I'm wishing I could at this point, just to get started, but alas, a common ibook flaw is that those mics (mine included) fail to function. A repair doesn't seem financially practical.

    Jonathan Reinhardt

  5. #5

    Default Re: recording interface/preamp

    The Duet is a good piece of hardware, really amazing quality in both the pres and converters. Well worth the difference in price over a Presonus Firebox or FireStudio. The drivers and software are solid, unlike the Presonus stuff.

    foldedpath was talking about the recording levels in the software (-6db)--you don't ever want clipping in digital. It's ugly distortion; nothing like tape saturation.

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    Default Re: recording interface/preamp

    Thanks again, Don. I get it.
    Does seem the Duet is the way to go. Certainly has recommendations from everywhere. Was also intrigued by the ART Tubefire8, but haven't found out enough about it to know if it's a contender.

    Jonathan Reinhardt

  7. #7
    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: recording interface/preamp

    IMO, Art gear can't touch the Apogee's quality.

    For Apogee, consumer gear was a step down from their long-held position as one of the premier
    makers of digital clocking equipment for audio, and then high-quality audio interfaces. They produce items of indisputable quality, with intelligent and innovative designs.

    Art stuff is very useful at entry level, but I regard their starved-plate 'tubes' as marketing devices. Folks have brought their Art preamps into the studio to use but when they compared the resulting recorded sounds with other preamps, the Arts always lost.

    PreSonus gear tends to be a bit better, in my experience, but I wouldn't put it on a par with Apogee at all.

    Another alternative might be the Lexicon interfaces. Again not up to Apogee, but the tracks I've gotten from folks who recorded via Lexicon interfaces were very, very good. I've used relied on Lexicon gear for many years. I'm always amazed at the low cost of their interfaces, too.

    If you're looking for an 8-input interface, that's a whole different subject, I think, than the 2-ins that we've mentioned so far...

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    Default Re: recording interface/preamp

    A while back I bought a Presonus Firebox and returned it because of lack of gain. I tried it with both a dynamic (SM58) and a KSM27. My search is currently on hold but I too became interested in the Duet
    Avi

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