Thumbing the neck and not palming it

[Soupy1957]

Could someone please tell me how to train my fretting hand to keep from palming the neck.

[GRW3]

Mando-guitar fretting divergence - Mando is palmed. I practice keeping my thumb off the neck.

[AlanN]

Keep the wrist straight, in line with forearm.

[Soupy1957]

GRW3: Forgive me, but........Huh?

[AlanN]

And when *I'm* sitting and picking, I sit up straight, no slouch. I see from your accompanying photo as what looks like a bent wrist. Das ist verboten

[Chris Keth]

GRW3: Forgive me, but........Huh?

In other words, you're supposed to palm a mandolin neck and cradle it in the webbing between thumb and forefinger. Classical guitar form, where the pad of your thumb rides the center of the back of the neck, is wrong and very uncomfortable with a mandolin.

Check this video out:

[mandroid]

Not being born with big hands , I adapted to the Mandolin well, un schooled.

It is a left hand laying the neck , on top of the knuckle of the index finger, and laying my
[rather short ] thumb on top of the top edge of the neck .

then that thumb becomes the home base to shift the rest of the hand up the neck to get to the notes
further up .

My picking buddy has a thumb sticking up above the neck its grip more comforting comfortable to him

He has taken up the Irish Zouk as vocal accompaniment , and then same hand is advantaged.

[AlanN]

Mike is so cool.

[Roger Kunkel]

Well, most books and teachers say there should be some daylight in the V made with your thumb and index finger. So your thumb and index finger are on the sides of the neck. How far up the side of the neck varies - thumbnail sticking up past the fretboard is common. Thumb against the back of the neck is uncommon, but you sure don't want the neck in the palm of your hand.

[Roger Kunkel]

So, what Mike said! :-)

Also, I think you'll find it feels better, there's a lot less strain on your wrist. Good technique helps avoid injury.

[Greg Wilson]

I have been working on keeping my wrist as straight as possible. It can be awkward but on the bright side it keeps your fingers from going numb and requiring carpal tunnel surgery.

[Don Stiernberg]

I always tell my students "drop your watch toward the floor"...pushing your wrist away from the bottom part of the neck helps in pursuit of having all four fingers up and over the fretboard. The aspiration is to have the fingers approaching the strings from as close to a 90 degree angle as you can, touching the string with fingertip only.

Since the mandolin is much smaller than the classical guitar, their rule about not crossing an imaginary line through the center of the neck with the left thumb is a bit of a moot point. But I believe we can put the theory or thinking behind that rule to work on the mandolin and aim that thumb down towards the center of the neck...there is a payoff as the fingers tend to be less "flattened out" and stressed on the board.

Having your mandolin strap on can help too--it shares in supporting the instrument, and by having the instrument in the same place all the time it becomes easier to make adjustments to your technique. Kind of like how in baseball a batter stands the same way in the same place and the pitcher intends to release the ball from the same place.

For me the point of contact is the part of the hand just under the index finger. The mandolin rests there and the thumb is just sort of along for the ride, hopefully not exerting too much pressure, and certainly not wrapping around to the fretboard, although there is a nice wear spot in the finish on the neck...

[Alex Orr]

Classical guitar form, where the pad of your thumb rides the center of the back of the neck, is wrong and very uncomfortable with a mandolin.

The thing about this is that I don't have much choice. I've got sort've a weird (deformed?) thumb joint/knuckle and it just won't bend the other way. Same problem on a guitar. Basically, the only way I can hold a neck is classical style. It seems so much easier to cradle it the other way but even when I use my other hand to try and twist my thumb into the position Mike shows, it won't rotate far enough around to hold it like he demostrates.

Perhaps it's from having pressure on that one point when I play mandolin that my thumb tends to go numb in that one spot after an hour or so of playin.

Also, Mike's advice about resting the mandolin on your leg is sure useful..IF you can afford a nice F-style with that little pointy thing...or if you're only playing while sitting down.

[Denny Gies]

I'm more a "webber" than a "palmer". Never could get the thumb thing down on the guitar so I never tried on the mandolin"

[Chris Keth]

The thing about this is that I don't have much choice. I've got sort've a weird (deformed?) thumb joint/knuckle and it just won't bend the other way. Same problem on a guitar. Basically, the only way I can hold a neck is classical style. It seems so much easier to cradle it the other way but even when I use my other hand to try and twist my thumb into the position Mike shows, it won't rotate far enough around to hold it like he demostrates.

Perhaps it's from having pressure on that one point when I play mandolin that my thumb tends to go numb in that one spot after an hour or so of playin.

Also, Mike's advice about resting the mandolin on your leg is sure useful..IF you can afford a nice F-style with that little pointy thing...or if you're only playing while sitting down.

I find that curling the thumb to grab the neck isn't even necessary. I leave my thumb pretty much pointing straight up.

[Alex Orr]

I find that curling the thumb to grab the neck isn't even necessary. I leave my thumb pretty much pointing straight up.

Yeah, that's the thing...if my palm is facing up, I can't get my thumb to point up. It just doesn't rotate that way. I can move it to the point where I can hold it against the back of the neck, but that's about as far as it will move.

[billkilpatrick]

when playing notes, my wrist and thumb are as they should be - wrist straight; thumb in line with the fretboard - but when playing chords, the neck settles into the crook of my thumb and forefinger ... i can't make chords any other way.

[D C Blood]

In forty-eight years of mandolining, I have found that my left hand finds its own best position. Sometimes it is palming, other times it will show an arch, sometimes it will thumb...In other words, don't tie your hand down to one position, but let it find its comfort position depending on what you are doing with it at the time. Chording chop chords it might want to do one thing, Chording barre chords it may want to do something else. Picking leads in first position, picking up the neck, might bring two totally different comfortable hand positions. "Go with the flow"...

[Keith Owen]

I just watched Mike's videos and I understand what he's saying. I even play like that pretty erll...except on barre chords.

I can't play clean barre chords without thumbing the back of the neck. And doing that becomes painful after a short time.

So is it possible to play barre chords while keeping the hand positioned properly? I assume it is, but I can't do it.

[Miked]

I always tell my students "drop your watch toward the floor"...pushing your wrist away from the bottom part of the neck helps in pursuit of having all four fingers up and over the fretboard. The aspiration is to have the fingers approaching the strings from as close to a 90 degree angle as you can, touching the string with fingertip only.

Since the mandolin is much smaller than the classical guitar, their rule about not crossing an imaginary line through the center of the neck with the left thumb is a bit of a moot point. But I believe we can put the theory or thinking behind that rule to work on the mandolin and aim that thumb down towards the center of the neck...there is a payoff as the fingers tend to be less "flattened out" and stressed on the board.

Having your mandolin strap on can help too--it shares in supporting the instrument, and by having the instrument in the same place all the time it becomes easier to make adjustments to your technique. Kind of like how in baseball a batter stands the same way in the same place and the pitcher intends to release the ball from the same place.

For me the point of contact is the part of the hand just under the index finger. The mandolin rests there and the thumb is just sort of along for the ride, hopefully not exerting too much pressure, and certainly not wrapping around to the fretboard, although there is a nice wear spot in the finish on the neck...

Pretty cool to have an acomplished musician like Don offering his advice!

[Ed Rosney]

I just watched Mike's videos and I understand what he's saying. I even play like that pretty erll...except on barre chords.

I can't play clean barre chords without thumbing the back of the neck. And doing that becomes painful after a short time.

So is it possible to play barre chords while keeping the hand positioned properly? I assume it is, but I can't do it.

I give a thumbs up to the upped thumb.

I've been attending a weekly song circle for several months, and one benefit is it forced me to play more than the simple two-fingered C G D chords I drifted to while playing at home.

As with you, I found I needed the thumb to play the barre chords well. And I feel that was a good thing. Eventually I routinely kept my thumb centered--it gave me an anchor for chording and for the FFcP exercises (thanks Cafe for introducing me to those!).

At first my thumb and hand hurt, but I felt the better technique I was acquiring was worth it--I simply stopped playing if it hurt too much. Because I make it a point to play at least 10 minutes every day, over time my thumb and hand have become more comfortable.

[Carolie]

I do so wish I hadn't broken my left wrist as a kid.

Should my thumb be parallel to the neck or sticking straight up perpendicular to it?

Carolyn

[Alex Orr]

Should my thumb be parallel to the neck or sticking straight up perpendicular to it?

I think the idea is that it should be pointing up, very loosely supporting the neck.

[Shelagh Moore]

...most books and teachers say there should be some daylight in the V made with your thumb and index finger.

That's true and it's good practice and I do try to follow that but occasionally find that the mandolin neck settles more naturally into the web between thumb and index finger and is more comfortable, especially when I'm tired. So I think what's most comfortable is probably the best rule of thumb.

[GRW3]

Sorry I was so obscure. Got the scoop from Roland White. Arm straight, wrist straight, neck in the crook between the fingers an thumb. I am guilty of using my thumb as a lever too but when I pay attention (when) I can easily see that that leverage is one of the key signs my fretting is tense. When my fretting is tense I loose dexterity and speed.

Another hint I read in a book on practice was intended for violin/fiddle. The suggestion was to place your hand where the little finger stretch on the G string is not strained. She says too often you place the hand where the other three fingers are OK and then have problems stopping the notes with the little finger. The idea is to make the first finger work a little more and give the little finger a break.