Wiens #24

[DougC]

Existing instruments are far easier to compare, but it is very difficult to get a bunch of top instruments in one room and compare them. Does everyone here want to see for example a Gillcrest, Dudenbostel, Bentrup, Ellis and whatever else (please forgive my omissions and spelling) in one room? The violin folks have just that in their meetings of International Violin Association and they award a prize for best sound and another for best build quality-every year. Do the Mandolin / guitar conferences do as much?

[Chris Biorkman]

Interesting development in the classifieds....I can't recall seeing a spot on a builder's waitlist being sold. Someone could end up with a very nice instrument, at a fraction of the wait time. (NFI)

Yes, or someone could sit around waiting for another couple of years for a mandolin that might or might not ever be completed. I have a feeling that if the seller had any reasonable expectation of delivery anytime in the near future, that the slot wouldn't be for sale in the first place.

[MandoCowboy]

Weins website says he's no longer taking orders, but you can give him $250 non-refundable to get on a list for a chance to buy one.

That is really strange.

What does that really mean?

[Miked]

From the Wiens website:

"It is my intention that this new policy change will make the process of waiting for a much-anticipated instrument more enjoyable for my patrons"

Hmmm...
Me thinks that wouldn't bring much enjoyment. I guess you would have to want a Weins mandolin REALLY REALLY bad to buy into the new policy.

[grassrootphilosopher]

DougC,
on festivals or gettogethers the mando diehards get to see quite a bit of mandolin. That does not necessarily include "all" builders (there are too many), but on a good day you could see the top tier luthier mandolins being played together. I´ve made the experience that top tier luthier mandolin pickers are as nice as the mandolins they play. They let me try out theirs and I´ve been able to do some extensive comparing.

Chris,
I had a picking buddy once buy out a build slot on a Gilchrist mandolin. The seller had a build slot on a Gilchrist mandolin but not the funds to purchase the instrument. He posted an ad (here on the classifieds) and my picking buddy bought him out. Things like that happen. They could happen with regards to a Wiens mandolin too.

MandoCowboy,
as I know it, it is a well documented practice for a builder to get buyers on a waiting list with a certain "downpayment". When the buyer does not pick up the instrument he ordered, he will be out of his "fee" and the instrument moves on. It´s not so strange to see things like that. When I ordered my Duff F-5 style mandolin I also payed a certain sum in advance. No big deal.

Miked,
I don´t think that the new Wiens policy is out of the ordinary. If you go to the Gruhn site you´ll see that Steve Gilchrist is taking orders for his Style-1 snakehead as well as for some F-5 style mandolins. Would you work out specifics or would you get "the average mandolin"? With Gilchrist mandolins it wouldn´t matter will be the general opinion, right?

Now, I do not intend to compare apples to oranges, Gilchrists to Wiens; I just think that more insight is needed.

The open questions are:
- What caused the delay?
- Is Jamie Wiens building full time and if not what is his day job?
- If Jamie Wiens has a day job, how much time is left to build mandos?
- What will be the output of mandolins in the (near future)?

If you check the "Wiens archive" at Dan Beimborns mandolinarchive site, you will see that apart from the mandolin in this thread Jamie Wiens has completed one more mandolin this year. Does that tell anything? No. Is it an indicator that production will speed up? Could be?

Questions, questions and no answers so far.

(As a sidenote; even though I would like to try out a Wiens (gonna maybe track down DanB one day) I don´t have an affiliation to Jamie Wiens or his mandolins)

[danb]

Olaf, drop me a note if you're ever passing through London and I'd be happy to show it to you.

I spoke to Jamie the other day, it sounds like #26 is just about to head out the door to a cafe member.

[Justin Carvitto]

I'm looking forward to seeing 26 on the archive, especially after 25. That one literally looks hot.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Olaf, drop me a note if you're ever passing through London and I'd be happy to show it to you.

I spoke to Jamie the other day, it sounds like #26 is just about to head out the door to a cafe member.

I´d be pleased to do just that.

[MandoCowboy]

From grassrootphilosopher

"MandoCowboy,
as I know it, it is a well documented practice for a builder to get buyers on a waiting list with a certain "downpayment". When the buyer does not pick up the instrument he ordered, he will be out of his "fee" and the instrument moves on. It´s not so strange to see things like that. When I ordered my Duff F-5 style mandolin I also payed a certain sum in advance. No big deal."


I don't think the $250 admin fee that Wiens trying to charge is an "order" deposit. Seems like to me you give him the money and then you get a "chance" to bid on his mandos if one ever comes up for sale.

His website implies that his order book is full. For builder to have built barely 2 mandos (3 now) in over 2 years is a really slow production rate. He either has very few orders or the folks that have placed an order will wait a very long time and cannot be happy about that.

Since the admin fee is a "no refund" deal, I hear a flushing sound on that one. I can't see how doing something like that is good for business. Something is not right with that picture.

[kirksdad]

I have to agree. the wording of his policy would scare off most folks, and maybe thats what the boy wants.......

[grassrootphilosopher]

I don't think the $250 admin fee that Wiens trying to charge is an "order" deposit. Seems like to me you give him the money and then you get a "chance" to bid on his mandos if one ever comes up for sale.

Since the admin fee is a "no refund" deal, I hear a flushing sound on that one. I can't see how doing something like that is good for business. Something is not right with that picture.

Well, Jamie Wien´s website says this:
"The $250 fee will be deducted from the purchase price at the time of final sale."
That means, the money is not "gone".

I have builders in mind that take absurdly long to get an instrument done. One of the best known luthiers with excedingly long waiting time is Wayne Henderson. John Arnold also comes to mind. I have seen luthier´s websites where you get on the waiting list with a "downpayment" and will not have a fixed price at that point. Is it worth it? To those who want the instrument, yes. For me waiting 10 years or so for an instrument seems a little bit too much. But more power to the builder if he´s so much in demand that he can keep customers waiting that long. Their work must be good then. (There´s allways the risk for the luthier that after a 10 year waiting period the customer is dead, or the economy prohibits the purchase of yet another instrument, or the wife doesn´t want it, or...)

And to anyone who might be interested in a Wiens mandolin, they´ll surely inquire what they´ll get and how the whole procedure is about to work out.

[Dfyngravity]

I don't see why builders charge $ to "get on a list". I have had a couple custom instruments built and once my name came up next on the list I then paid my deposit and was told how long it would be until delivery and was also in heavy e-mail correspondence with the builders throughout the process. I have not problem putting money down once it's my time, but to simply be put on the list is another thing. I don't see why you can't simply put a name on a list and when it comes up if the person wants to continue with the process they then pay a down payment or they are simply removed from the list or moved to the end of the list again. But I guess if people are willing to pay you to get on a list then take their money.

[Fretbear]

Is that flowerpot a red chili?

[Randy Smith]

I don't see why builders charge $ to "get on a list". I have had a couple custom instruments built and once my name came up next on the list I then paid my deposit and was told how long it would be until delivery and was also in heavy e-mail correspondence with the builders throughout the process. I have not problem putting money down once it's my time, but to simply be put on the list is another thing. I don't see why you can't simply put a name on a list and when it comes up if the person wants to continue with the process they then pay a down payment or they are simply removed from the list or moved to the end of the list again. But I guess if people are willing to pay you to get on a list then take their money.

Since for decades I've worked a job for which I've been guaranteed a year's employment each time, I can understand a builder wanting to set up a year's work in order to project income. Many workers might not know if they'll be employed the following week, but **if a builder keeps to a reasonable and communicated time schedule** (perhaps changed because of emergency), then asking for a deposit to create a waiting list seems fair.
Yes, the buyer should know the time frame, and yes, the builder should always be in contact with the buyer. But if the builder is popular enough to stay very busy, a buyer might get the mandolin he wants sooner than otherwise even though he was asked to get on a list months before the building started.
However, the problem with the policy stated on Wiens' cite is that the buyer is paying $250. to ". . . purchase a new Wiens instrument on an 'as available' basis." Imo, that doesn't sound like the buyer will get even a guess whether that availability will come, two, five, or ten years later.
Wiens' policy itself is ethical, but it's very vague. To be fair to Wiens, maybe if a buyer called Wiens, maybe the builder would clear things up and give the buyer a realistic sense of how long he could expect to wait to be offered a chance to buy a mandolin. As already said, some person might want to wait ten years for a Wiens. They're incredible instruments.
But unless Wiens will make his "new policy" (his term) clearer, I'm puzzled how this policy might make ". . .the waiting for a much-atinicpated instrument more enjoyable for [his] patrons" (quote from his site).

Randy S.

[Dfyngravity]

I agree with you there Randy. But you know many people own their own businesses, as do I. I own a landscape design and installation company and help run my Dad's construction company so I know the feeling of whether or not you are going to have business from day to day. A few years back it wasn't nothing to have work backed up for 3 to 6 months. But I couldn't imagine asking people to pay any dollar amount to wait in line until I get to them. Though I am proud to say that I had built a good name for myself so most people were and are still willing to wait, though in today's economy I don't usually have a back log of work.

I don't really have a problem with a builder asking for a deposit to get on the waiting list as long as there is some definite timeline and you are able to reach and correspond with the builder regularly even if it isn't your turn for the build for a while. I always tell people to call me to see where I am at with my schedule because as you mentioned Randy, if you stay busy and on top of things, usually you will get to people sooner than expected.

Hopefully there are people out there on the waiting list that can maybe explain it a little further....?

[Mike Bunting]

Seems sort of arrogant to charge money just to get on a list so that he might get around to making you a mandolin