"planting"

[clintross]

Hey everybody, I've been playing for a few years now and have come across some conflicting advice on "planting" (your right pickey to keep your hand in place) I've come across some pickers who swear by and others who dismiss it.
Any advice/opions from you esteemed experts?

[JeffD]

Can of worms.

And everyone is right. Not to say that there isn't a right way to play the mandolin. Just that this particular choice, to plant or not to plant, has as many vehament adherents as scolding detractors.

I plant and brush for some playing and I fly free of planting, not even brushing the top of the bridge with the heel of my palm, for other playing. It all depends on the phrase I am playing.

There are lots of threads on the topic that you can search.

[mandolirius]

This will likely generate lots of response but I think that, when all is said and done, you'll wind up right where you're at now. No one can say what the best technique is for you. The general consensus among teachers is not to do it because it impedes the free motion of your hand/wrist, but some very great players do and it works for them. If you really look closely at mandolinists you'll see all kinds of varying right hand positions.

[kudzugypsy]

some people need to plant - their hand needs that stable reference point to pivot from. once you learn that - ie, you have been playing that way since day 1, then you will never break the habit. there are plenty of GREAT players who plant, so...
but generally it is not a good habit, but once its there, its there...a lot of people hold their pick "wrong" too AND plant...but manage just fine. there are some benefits to planting and it seems for beginners it is much easier due to having a solid foundation to hit the strings - plus, its faster, cleaner, and more accurate....so you say, whats the problem - well the right hand should be free and loose and imo, you get a better tone and more volume without planting, BUT that doesnt help you if you miss or cant hit the strings - it may take years to develop a great right hand.

mandolin is a folk instrument, there isnt 300 years of training like other instruments so people just use what works for them.

[Rob Gerety]

once you learn that - ie, you have been playing that way since day 1, then you will never break the habit.

I do not advocate planting - but - I don't think it is correct to say that you will never break the habit. I used to plant. Now I don't.

[Shelagh Moore]

I used to "plant" all the time but have learned over recent years to play without doing so, mainly to avoid wear on the finish of the instrument. While I think not planting is good practice I don't really think there's a right and wrong and have seen plenty of top players planting their pinkies.

[John Flynn]

I do not advocate planting - but - I don't think it is correct to say that you will never break the habit. I used to plant. Now I don't.

The same here. I planted for over 20 years on guitar and then 10 years on mando. I broke myself of it and now I can comfortably and happily play without planting.

I have been persuaded in recent years that there may be some advantages to occasionally planting, and I recognize there are great players who do it. What I think now is that the problem is when you "have to plant." That is, you just can't play decently without it. I think it needs to be an option, not a crutch. My guess is all those great players who plant would still do pretty darn good if they chose not to plant.

[Rob Gerety]

I guess I should say too that I am glad I broke the habit and it was a pain in the butt to change.

[man dough nollij]

[John McGann]

Yes, some play great despite planting... not because of it. IMHO.

[Jim Broyles]

I heard Adam wishes he didn't plant.

[kudzugypsy]

i got to sit down last year in a jam with Adam, and he was one of the people who are always mentioned when the planting debate comes up - his playing is just amazing regardless. when you get up close on his playing, you realize how powerful he is for one thing, big hands, lots of power, yet a very smooth player. i dont know if he was playing a distressed mandolin, but the one he was playing, a Daley, was really showing the planting wear on the top and it couldnt have been more than a few years old.

i broke myself of the "sam bush locked forearm" style that i played for 10 years and it was ROUGH doing it - i couldnt really play for 2 years during this period, its just been the last year where i was able to play back up to par with before, but my playing / tone / speed and loose RH was well worth it - i can run with the fastest fiddle and banjo players with ease now, where before, my wrist would just "lock up" at fast tempos. - but for 2 years, i could barely get thru Golden Slippers at waltz tempo

[Tony Sz]

When I first took up the mandolin, I planted. I had a teacher that helped me convert to a free hand. It took about a month of disciplined practice to start to feel somewhat natural. I'm glad I made the transition. It can be done and it's worthwhile, IMHO.

[AlanN]

The whole 'over analysis of technique' thing has really come about in recent times, with DVD lessons and a computer butt-in-seat mentality. Now, every little niggle of right-hand flaven is over-studied, over-photographed, over-blown. Sure, there's a wrong way and a (multiple) right way to pick. But the bottom line is to ultimately make your hand and pick a 'one' to stroke the strings.

There's a very good picker in the area, whose right hand looks contorted when he picks. He can flat out do it.

[John McGann]

The whole 'over analysis of technique' thing has really come about in recent times, with DVD lessons and a computer butt-in-seat mentality. Now, every little niggle of right-hand flaven is over-studied, over-photographed, over-blown.

Well, that's one way to look at it (I laugh because I've created instructional DVDs, including one on technique)

The availability of information via photos, DVDs etc. doesn't equate with "overstudied, overblown" players IMHO- that information, in the right hands, can lead to some very good music.

A little middle-path, thoughtful technical approach does help a lot of people... like me, for example...

My technique thoroughly sucked until I got some direct advice from the pros. "Whatever works" is an attitude that leads people into some deeply ingrained less-than-effective places, especially when just starting out. I took months of long, dedicated daily practice on the 4-5 hour a day level to undo years of less-than-stellar habits. Blood, sweat and tears that could have been avoided had I the right info at the right time.

At the end of the day, either you can play (to whatever degree) or you can't, and there's a lot more than technique involved in being able to play well. Those things can be delivered better with a good physical approach to the instrument...at least the odds are better that way.

[JeffD]

When I started out I didn't plant. Later I found planting improved my playing at a time I needed to improve or I would lose interest. Later still I found that not planting allowed me to do certain things much better.

So I am all over the place.

What I have decided is to avoid sheepishness. When I plant I proudly plant. Its my choice, out of alternatives, because I like it, and not something I do when tired or sloppy or used to do till I saw the light. And when I brush, or fly free of planting, its also a choice, out of alternatives, for the sake of playing the music, and not a matter of repenting of my formerly reprehensible technique.

I think the key is to be flexible to do what you need to do to make the music, and not be habit bound in a way that limits the possibilities of your music.

[AlanN]

Totally agree, John. I did not mean to demean the 'teaching profession' and the good it does.

Just seems to me there is now a very precise, highly-publicized vision of right and wrong. If one looks at the pre-computer generation, there are loads of great instrumentalists (not just the top recorded ones) who learned by themselves by studying the hot pickers and by trial and error.

[Doug Edwards]

I tend to brush more playing and plant some doing tremlo. I pickguard helps me from getting off balance.

I think many of us are self taught, coming from guitar playing. I admire those with the talent to play smoothly without a reference point. But, what I don't see with these gifted players is the many hours of practice and instruction that got them to the level they have.

If I did it all over, I'd put more time into practice and instruction. Many of the bad habits I've developed may not have happened and I'd be a better player. I started playing guitar at age six, but only took lessons for a year. Too much water under the bridge now. But I'm OK with playing several different instruments and being mediocre. I have fun.

[Barbara Shultz]

I certainly don't claim to be an expert, and I'm always striving for improvement. I've never planted. I have changed many things in the 4 years that I've been playing, but I started out with my right hand fingers loosely curled in, and have never changed that! I don't think I could plant if I tried!

[kudzugypsy]

i see your point alan - i think of the MANY posts where people ask how to hold the pick, strike the string, plant, not plant, etc...
i think its great to ask these questions btw, as they are important...BUT
a student cant assume ONE way to do something all the time..and thats what they are looking for in their answer - look at a violinist, how they use the bow, there are numerous ways the violinist must control the bow for whatever effect they want. when i played violin (badly years ago) we worked on a 15 page bowing method for 2 years, and i still was on page 6, (no kidding) - it amazes me mandolin players want one way (answer) for everything.

its like, you ask a good question - get 5 different (good) ways to do it, and many times are now MORE confused than when you knew nothing. all 5 may work, they may be useful in some way in a passage or for effect...thats just how it works.
i've worked on technique seriously for the last 10 years, but there are many, many people with *bad* technique that blow me away musically - which is what its all about in the end.

[John Flynn]

My thinking is not "who is right or wrong" or "what mandolin hero does it or recommends it." It is more about the functional aspects of planting. There are some aspects of planting that seem obvious, at least to me:

1. If you plant, you are dampening the top, right in the main area of vibration. How much depends on how hard you plant and for a given player and a given mandolin it may or may not be significant. But we have people buying products and debating building techniques over minute details of tone production, so it is an issue for consideration.

2. If you plant, you are anchoring yourself in one picking area and one kind of attack on the strings. It seems to me that hampers you in exploring the full tonal range of the instrument and switching fluidly between single notes and rhythm. Sure, this can be compensated for and overcome, but it is still a disadvantage.

3. Planting just looks awkward, from a mechanical standpoint. I can't believe any expert in bio-mechanics would look at a picture of someone playing with plant and say that is efficient, or that it is good position for the hand and wrist. Can you still play great with a plant? Sure, lots of people do. But as someone said earlier, is that because of planting or in spite of it?

4. I have seen good arguments in favor of NOT planting. I have just listed some, there may be more. The only arguments I have seen in favor of planting seem to be rationalizations. "It's not that bad." "Some pros do it." "I've always done it that way and it's too hard to change." I would really like to hear a positive argument for planting that says, "Here's how planting has a distinct advantage over not planting. Here's why a new student should actually be taught to plant, because it will make him a better played in the long run." I am open to such an argument, I just haven't seen it yet.

[AlanN]

i've worked on technique seriously for the last 10 years, but there are many, many people with *bad* technique that blow me away musically - which is what its all about in the end.

I hear you.

The dearly-departed Butch B. was a stickler for proper technique and good practice habits. At one of his 3-day seminars (he was one of the early ones to do the multi-day mando workshops), someone asked him about pinky planting - which he did, at times. His answer was something like "If it works, do it".

He also said "There are plenty of guys who pick faster than me". I plan on making that into case sticker (with appropriate credit), or something.

[JeffD]

4. I have seen good arguments in favor of NOT planting. I have just listed some, there may be more. The only arguments I have seen in favor of planting seem to be rationalizations. "It's not that bad." "Some pros do it." "I've always done it that way and it's too hard to change." I would really like to hear a positive argument for planting that says, "Here's how planting has a distinct advantage over not planting. Here's why a new student should actually be taught to plant, because it will make him a better played in the long run." I am open to such an argument, I just haven't seen it yet.

There are many. Not for planting all the time, but there are some things that are easier to do if you plant.

A big one for me is that I do some really fast passages by feel, and planting means I move a bit less and have a constant tactile feedback about where I am. This gives me that distinct advantage you are talking about.

Some double stops are easier planting. The better precision allows better avoidence of adjacent unwanted strings.

Another is I get more precise control over dynamics because, again, I have that constant feedback as to how far I am from the stings and how deep my pick stroke is. When really schmaltzing up a great old cowboy waltz for example.

Of course there are things much better done without planting, and I do them that way. Some of the fast passages where the right hand can just go back and forth like tremolo, for example, and chords and strumming of course.

[clintross]

Thank you esteemed, experts I believe the conclusion is that most of you don't plant, and neither do I, and it was my recent attempt to that led me to ask this question. I was just wondering if that could possibly be holding me back, I beleive that isn't the case, at least from these answers.

[Doug Edwards]

I am reminded of when I worked on my golf swing. I looked at several swing tip articles and watched a Jack Nicholas video. I became so confused I could not hit the stupid ball. It took several lessons from the Pro to get me striking the ball good. He looked at my basic swing and made a few adjustments so it would work for me (there's that theme again, instruction & practice). I used to shoot in the mid 70's after that, with lots of practice. My back (disc) won't let swing a club today unfortunately.

BTW, golfers are obsessed with equipment and accessories too.