Fingers too fat for the mandolin?

[blarg_1024]

So I have been wanting to learn to play and instrument for years and I finally decided to pick one and give it a go.

I did not want to buy something overly expensive if it turned out that I and hopelessly bad or otherwise unsuited to the instrument. I picked the mandolin and after researching the options for a beginner I settled on the KM-172. Not very pricey but also not made from glue and old newspapers.

Well it arrived today and let me tell you I am BAD. I grabbed a book for starters and a nice heavy laminated sheet with chords on it. I am stupendeously awful. Anyhow, I am sure that is nothing lessons and practice could not fix.

However I noticed something, something I never considered when getting ready to buy. The fingerboard, particularily near the nut, is really narrow. The nut is narrower than any two of my fingers.

Think about that, any two of my fingertips (pinky and ring for example) when put together (firmly) are wider than the entire fingerboard until I get past the 5th fret. I am worried that I have made a mistake and that my fingers are way too large to play the mandolin.

Thoughts, ideas, am I just being paranoid?


Blarg

[Daniel Pratt]

I'm still quite new to the mandolin as well, so I'm sure others can provide more insight. Regardless, I have somewhat pudgy fingers and I've been able to chord pretty well, as long as I'm pushing down with the very tips of my fingers (not the part with the finger print if that makes sense). Otherwise part of my finger is touching the adjacent strings and it sounds horrible

I saw a discussion somewhere on the message board about the same thing, and several people mentioned accomplished professional players with big fingers, so I'm sure it's something you work through (probably goes back to that practicing thing). Good luck!

[mandroid]

[words of encouragement] You are not alone ,.. this comes up regularly,.. just have a good go at it.
one of my friends has been going at his F4 for decades, a hands on landscape architect , (advanced degree in shoveling),
with some rather 'sausage fingers' , and remember, there are even thinner necks on Fiddles,

and lots of farmer-fiddlers made those work..

[Joe F]

When I first became interested in the mandolin many years ago, I decided I could never learn how to play it, for the same reason as you describe. A year or two later, I went to hear an old-time duo at a local bar. The guy playing mandolin was much bigger than me, with fingers like sausages, but he could really make that instrument sing.

Not only did he convince me that I could, in fact, learn how to play mandolin, he also became my first mandolin instructor.

With motivation and lots of practice, your fingers will figure out where they need to go. By all means, do it!

[Capt. E]

Many master players have very large hands, including Bill Monroe and Sam Bush. It is a matter of technique. Try learning to play individual notes first. Index finger playing 1st and 2nd fret, middle finger playing 3rd and 4th fret, ring finger playing 5th and 6th fret, pinky playing 7th fret. Get comfortable with that. Chords can be difficult, especially 4 finger chords. Be patient and practice. It will come faster than you think.

[Tim2723]

Yes, as the others have said, and especially the advice from the Cap'n: keep working and pay attention to the technique, which is not the same as the guitar or banjo. The internet is filled with great tutorials for free. Search around and you'll find enough to keep you enthusiastic for a loooong time!

Welcome to the forum. Ask as many questions as you can think of, and even those you don't!

BTW, I just have to steal that line about glue and old newspapers. That one's priceless!!

[GRW3]

I was worried about that when I started but it turned out to be a minimal problem. Most likely because the 5th tuning of the mandolin adds two chromatic steps to each string as compared to the typical 4th for a guitar. This tends to spread those fingers out single finger bars are easier.

I suspect the finger crush issue is why the Gibson M6, and its clones, did not become popular.

[Stephen Cagle]

Well you "sausage finger guys" do I have some good news for you. I toured in 06' with Ray Deaton and the Anita Fisher Band while Ray was still the bass man for III Tyme out. Playing mando w/ 3TO that year was Allen Perdue. Let me tell you right now I have NEVER seen fingers that big! Allen even comments about his sausage fingers being really big. And lets just say he knows his way around the finger board pretty well! No worries guys at all, just keep up the practice and those mando tunes will eventually start pouring right on out.

[Wendell Jeong]

This is great advice from everyone. I couldn't really squeeze two of my finger together to fret the middle two strings for a while. Then.... somehow I managed it. Have fun.

Wendell

[mandocrucian]

Blarg - if you have size 12 feet, are you going to listen to advice to go buy size 9 shoes? Or are you going to settle for wearing somebody else's prescription eyeglasses?

While there's a tolerance range for the finger thickness to neck width ratio, some folks with very small, or very big fingers will just be much better off getting a neck that is suitable for their hands.

Sounds like you need a wider neck mandolin. Yeah, you could get by on a standard width neck, but you'll end up making a lot of compromises technique-wise, in order to play on it and continually avoid dampening adjacent strings.

I can play right-handed and I can play left-handed. Now it turns out that most humans will have a dominant hand that is slightly larger than their non-dominant hand.....which is why high-end glove manufacturers always tell rightis to size themselves from measurments of their right hand. Now I never knew this until I started flipping my mando over and playing LHed. While avoidance of dampening an adjacent string can be fine-tuned with practice, it becomes more difficult if there is less clearance because your fingertips are thicker. If I had fully realized this fact earlier, I would have gotten my LHed strung mandolin (a Mid-Mo) with a slightly wider neck. (I can play it fine fretting with the left hand, but that slight size difference with the right fingers does make a difference - even 1/16th of an inch wider neck would have been an improvement, 1/8th even better.)

You'll be forced to lift fingers - say your 3rd finger on the D string at the 5th fret, everytime you need to play a note on the A string at the 2nd or 3rd frets. Where the smooth technique is to leave the finger(s) on the lower string down, you'll be lifting them up all the time in order to avoid deadening the notes on the higher string. You'll get by, but it's never going to give you a "smooth" sound.

You guys with fat stubby fingers - play the tab below and try not to lift the fingers if possible. Can you do it without deading notes on the higher string?

=====================|========================
=====2===2==0===0====|======0=====0===0=======
===5===5======5===5==|==4=5===5=4===4==========
=====================|========================

Try to play on some mandos that have a wider neck, and see for yourself.

Niles H

[dulcillini]

Yes, it is OK. I have fingers like sausages. For some reason that I can't explain, just keep practicing and the slurring of notes and double fretting just goes away in time ! You gradually learn the exact position and the problem takes care of itself. I wish I could be more scientific, but that is how it worked out for me. I almost gave up but due to the encouragement of people on this very site, I kept plugging away and the problem gradually took care of itself. Can't really explain it. Just keep picking !

Mike

[Payit Forward]

Niles,

Thanks for posting that little exercise. It validates my own belief that standard necks are too small for my "deformed" fingers.

I am a relative beginner, and had assumed that everyone had this same problem. I thought it could be remedied if I "just worked at it."

I just recently took a close look at what was happening, and discovered that I cannot fret the D or A strings on my mandolin with my 2nd or my 3rd finger without touching the adjoining courses on both sides of that finger.

I'm now searching out a mandolin with a wider neck.

[man dough nollij]

I had a loaner mandolin last year that drove me crazy. I was always fouling the A course when fretting the D string, and the other way around. Turns out the nut slots were cut wrong, with the D and A courses too close together. It was so bad that I had to selectively remove four of the strings and play it as a four-stringer to make it playable. It might be a good idea to have a luthier at least look at yours to make sure it doesn't have the same problem.

The peril of learning from chord charts is that there's no indication on there that some of those chords are EXTREMELY difficult to master. I can't hit a G chop chord on the fly to save my live, though I can do one pretty cleanly if I have the time to set it up. I recommend learning a lot of two-finger chords first, then learn the more difficult versions.

Happy pickin',

Lee

[brown akers]

Keep in mind the advice that Tim2723 gave you also and remember that your posture is a huge part of the "total package" - and it's alot harder to get rid of bad habits once they form. Neck angle, supporting the mandolin correctly, etc... all translate good or bad into the end result. Your large fingers will become an advantage when you want to cover two sets of adjacent strings with one finger - there's advantages and limitations either way.

Saw a band at a festival in the area a few years ago and they had a mandolin player who was SO BIG he sat on TWO folding chairs his bandmates helped him into. I don't tell you this to make fun but to say he was SMOKIN' GOOD - and a great stage presence and funny stage banter as well. If that little instrument in your hands calls to you you'll work it out - just try and play a little every day.

[Mandoist]

For what it's worth, fiddlers Chubby Anthony and Curly Ray Cline had some of the fattest, calloused hands/fingers I've ever seen...and they wailed on their tiny fiddles!

[re simmers]

I respectfully disagree with the notion that you need a larger neck to play the mandolin. I played in a band for years with a man who weighed between 400 and 450 most of his life. He was a plumber by trade. His huge fingers were completely calloused from work. He was one of the finest fiddlers of all time, a super mandolin picker and banjo picker. He took first place in fiddle and 2nd in banjo at Watermellon Park about 35 years ago. He was also classically trained and had played as a guest violinist with a symphony in Philadelphia, where he played a Srad., a real one that belonged to a Music Conservatory. He played bluegrass, country, pop, and symphonic music. No problems with playing any of his instruments. This conversation came up quite often and he always said it was a matter of technique.

Niles, I think you jammed with us at the Log Cabin Campground, north of Winchester about 15 years ago. You may not remember the very large man who played a fantastic fiddle.

My friend died last August at age 62. His name was Leonard Carpenter. If you ever heard him play you remember him.

I know this is just one example, but I recorded and performed with Leonard for many years, and he amazed me with his ability with those huge, calloused hands.

Bob Simmers

[Payit Forward]

I'll agree that you don't NEED a larger neck to play mandolin. But I don't think it can hurt, can it? This is a sincere question. Are there any reasons that a wider neck would be a detriment? I'd appreciate any incite before I pursue this further.

[John McGann]

Radim Zenkl plays some wider than usual fingerboards, with wider string spacings, for a variety of reasons-he does a lot of split string and other unusual (for bluegrassers) techniques. . I tried his and they feel great! Different...

I would imagine that a wider fingerboard could help the digitally well endowed feel more comfortable...why not!

[BenNorth]

I have to add to this conversation as a first time poster, but a long time listener.

I am a big guy. 6' 3", 240 pounds, size 13 feet. Any two of my fingers put together are way bigger than the nut on my mandolin.

I've played fiddle for years (since I was 13) and do have a little trouble up past 5th position (the equivalent of the first finger starting on the ninth fret of a mandolin). I decided to get serious about the mandolin not more than two months ago, and I've found myself wishing for wider fingers. Yes, WIDER! It makes it easier to fret those four string root note chords starting on the g string. One finger on two pairs.

In fact, Mike Marshall mentions in one of his Homespun DVDs that he likes a narrow neck on his mandolin for just that reason, and he's got hands almost the size of mine.

I crushed the tip of my left middle finger badly when I was 22 and I've always been self-conscience about it, as it's kind of flattened and bent. It has turned out to be quite handy in the last few months!

I guess what I'm trying to say is the size of your fingers are not going to hold you back. I spent a good amount of time obsessing over the idea that my own hands are too big, and it's simply not true. The human body is a remarkably adaptive thing. Now if I could get the idea that I'm too old to get really good out of my head... I just turned 33.

I wish you the very best as you embark on your musical journey. Hang around here at the Cafe. The people who post here are really great.

Ben

[KCrook]

I so understand that 'first time,' trying to play the mandolin. My first sessions were awful, and frustrating, and I felt that maybe I was just not the right size for the mandolin also. And, I also had to overcome the 'curse' of being a guitar player, as I 'expected' to be able to play the Mandolin as I had played the guitar. (Boy -was I wrong!)

Now, I am a larger than average guy at 6'2", 265 lbs, size 13 shoes, XXL shirts, and larger than average hands. About a year ago, when I started on the Mandolin, I also found that it was hard to get a clean sound out of my mando, especially when I left my fingers on the strings as I was instructed to do by my teacher.

But, after lots of practice, I learned how to hold the little monster, and how to fret it so that I can now play most notes with out buzzing, even when I leave my fingers down until I really need to move them as I have been taught.

It just takes time, and practice. And a good instructor that has some patience and will keep you interested.

[f5loar]

I will add that Bobby Osborne has some of the fattest fingers to ever grace a mandolin and he does it on a thin mid 20's F5 neck and even a late '24 really thin Loar neck.
Hear his solo recording of "Bobby and his Mandolin" and you will agree his fingers do not hinder his playing whatsoever. Now he's been at it over 50 years and that helps but he was good way back. On the opposite end I think Donna Stoneman has some of the fastest thinnest fingers I've ever seen and they flew over a wide 50's F5 fingerboard.

[Wendell Jeong]

So how wide is a wide neck? I have only played my Hohner and my Michael Kelly. The MK is 1 and 1/8". My Hohner is 1 and 1/16. Do commercial necks come much wider? Do any necks come as wide as 1 and 1/2"?

Wendell

[mandocrucian]

And, I also had to overcome the 'curse' of being a guitar player, as I 'expected' to be able to play the Mandolin as I had played the guitar.
It just takes time, and practice. And a good instructor that has some patience and will keep you interested.

Just think about how much more difficult and time consuming it would be if you hadn't played any guitar! You already had developed finger coordination from that. Now, imagine trying to finesse that eeny-weeny fretboard with a set of big and untrained fingers!

Don't get me wrong.... I'm not saying that various physical obstacles can't be overcome through determination and practice. I've seen players with various disabilites and/or birth defects. Django used 2 fingers. I've seen (on TV) a jazz bassist who only had one finger and the guy could play. Then there's that BG banjo player without LH fingers - (can't think of the name of the band he's with).

If your instrument doesn't really match your physique, you may be able to find compromises with it and get around on it; and your playing develops in a different manner. Or you acquire enough digital finesse that you can manuever an 8' wide truck on a 18' wide road without hitting oncoming traffic.

But finding the right sized instrument for the new player is a lot more important because they need that extra wiggle room. Othewise, all kids would be issued full sized violins, instead of a variety of 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 7/8 sized instruments that they "grow" through. (Almost like getting bigger shoes and clothes every year).

This one-size-fits-all mentality is just dumb. People with small hands have been told to keep stretching until they can play with "standard fingering". Keep working til you can get those chop chords. Of course, if you did some hand size>scale length measurements and applied the ratio small handed (or kids) have to regular handed folks....it would be like playing a 16-18" scale mandola instead of mandolin. Could you play a D or G chop chord on that neck? Or would you find yourself using the pinky on the 6th fret for your comfort?

BTW I've played on Mike Marshall's shaved neck F-5 ages ago back down in Florida. I hated it, but Mike has (or had) long spider fingers. If I had to, could I adapt to that neck? ....sure I could, and get good results out of it, but it wouldn't be my first preference. (I like the slightly wider pre-truss rod Gibson neck on my old A, over my 23 F4 truss-rod.)

But if you've got big fingers (or small hands, for that matter), doesn't it make some sense to give a try on something other that the "standard neck"?

NH

[Rick Schmidlin]

So I have been wanting to learn to play and instrument for years and I finally decided to pick one and give it a go.

I did not want to buy something overly expensive if it turned out that I and hopelessly bad or otherwise unsuited to the instrument. I picked the mandolin and after researching the options for a beginner I settled on the KM-172. Not very pricey but also not made from glue and old newspapers.

Well it arrived today and let me tell you I am BAD. I grabbed a book for starters and a nice heavy laminated sheet with chords on it. I am stupendeously awful. Anyhow, I am sure that is nothing lessons and practice could not fix.

However I noticed something, something I never considered when getting ready to buy. The fingerboard, particularily near the nut, is really narrow. The nut is narrower than any two of my fingers.

Think about that, any two of my fingertips (pinky and ring for example) when put together (firmly) are wider than the entire fingerboard until I get past the 5th fret. I am worried that I have made a mistake and that my fingers are way too large to play the mandolin.

Thoughts, ideas, am I just being paranoid?


Blarg

Two to three hours a day for three years and you will be a happy mandolin camper. Also with that background you will be able to give a well educated answer to someone is new like you are now. Start practicing NOW!

[mandolirius]

<BTW I've played on Mike Marshall's shaved neck F-5 ages ago back down in Florida. I hated it, but Mike has (or had) long spider fingers.>

"Or had"? Probably still has 'em, don't you think? BTW, when I met Mike I could not believe the length of his fingers. I was half a foot taller but his fingers looked like they were twice the length of mine. Another guy with "freak hands" was Tal Farlow. I shook his hand and my own hand disappeared inside his.