on loars:

[300win]

Ok how do you know if a Loar is real or fake ? I mean how can you tell if someone hands you a Loar and tells you this is authentic, and it is an oustanding sounding mandolin in every way, but maybe a copy of one. How can you tell ? It would seem to me to be impossible.

[Scott Crabtree]

You can tell because few people will just hand you a loar...

either that or the size of their pocketbook ;-)

[SternART]

Look inside the f holes for the labels.......the Lloyd Loar signature label, the number and date.

[250sc]

My guess is there are copies out there that will fool most people, even those in the know.

[300win]

Look inside the f holes for the labels.......the Lloyd Loar signature label, the number and date.

Well as far as I understand that has been faked before on the labels and such. I mean Gibson on thier distressed master models uses something to make them smell old, do you not think that luthiers are capable of copying the Loar signature and the smell also and the building of a F-5 that sounds old ? I do, because I've seen it, copys so much like a Gibson F-5 you could not tell the differance. So why could not the same things be done on a Loar copy ? And how if you run into that how do you tell the differance between an authentic Loar and a fake ?

[SternART]

In that case you'd need an"expert" who has the experience of seeing so many they could probably tell a great forgery too. I though you meant, what is the first thing to look for........

There are several "experts" here on this forum, as well as instrument dealers who specialize in stringed instruments.

[Glassweb]

well, we certainly don't have to worry about Gibson making an F5 that will pass for a Loar! i imagine there are only a couple of builders who could actually pull off a convincing copy of a Loar... maybe just one... and he lives in Australia (wink-wink). that said, those who have experience with Loars could still tell the difference...

[f5loar]

The labels are the easy part. This is another reason that any authentic Loar should be listed on the F5Journal archives to certify it's the real deal. Comes in real handy when you go to sell it. I remember a guy a few years back that ran a July 9th 1923 Loar on ebay. He had thousands of people saying it was fake. It took me and Darryl Wolfe to convince the ebayers it was the real deal.
I had documented that one and verified it. While it is true there really are only a few that really know many more are learning. To tell you what to look for would be near impossible. Best contact those that know before you buy or even if you think you saw one. Here is a label I did up and stuck it in a copy F5:

[SternART]

Aren't you a naughty boy!!!

[MikeEdgerton]

I always wanted to make a Loar label and sign it Floyd Loar.

[300win]

Nobody has answered my question yet. How can you tell if it's a fake label ? How can you tell it's a fake copy ? I've seen quite a few fake copys of F-5 Gibsons over the years, they looked real, and they sounded great, so how do you know ? Those of you who have handled alot of them, how in h---do you know for certain ?

[Glassweb]

Nobody has answered my question yet. How can you tell if it's a fake label ? How can you tell it's a fake copy ? I've seen quite a few fake copys of F-5 Gibsons over the years, they looked real, and they sounded great, so how do you know ? Those of you who have handled alot of them, how in h---do you know for certain ?

There is no substitute for EXPERIENCE...

[300win]

[QUOTE=Glassweb;701808]There is no substitute for EXPERIENCE...[/QUO Yes I realize that, experience, but what methods do you use to tell the differance ? Is it just that you have handled, seen, played etc. so many of them that you know by that ? I mean to me it seems almost impossible that you can know for sure by any means. Like I'vesaid I've picked a bunch of Gibson F-5 copies, and would have thought they were actual Gibsons had I not known beforehand that they were'nt. I mean WHAT DO YOU USE TO TELL THE DIFFERANCE ? No one here has answered that yet.

[Gail Hester]

I mean WHAT DO YOU USE TO TELL THE DIFFERANCE ? No one here has answered that yet.

No one has answered it for a couple reasons, the first being there isn't enough room here. Look through the Loar picture of the day threads and you'll get an idea of the amount of information and level of detail that the experts like Charlie, Darryl, Dan, Tom, and Ken, to name a few, have identified and discussed on those hundreds of pages. There is much, much more information than that as well. The other issue is, do we really want to post an accurate checklist of every feature used to authenticate a Loar F5 on a public forum that would facilitate the building of a forgery? I don't.

There are a number of builders today who are good enough and have enough information to be very dangerous in this area if they really wanted to be. Fortunately, there are those few experts that can smell a fake a mile away and those buying a Loar F5 are usually are smart enough to get one of them involved in any transaction.

[Hans]

No one can give you a two minute drill to be a Loar "authenticator". You could start by studying all the photo of Loars on the Archives, and getting every issue of the F5 Journal and getting every print of a Loar out there and doing the research...
Frankly, I don't give a rip if someone makes a fake. I don't because I don't build Gibsons...

[re simmers]

300win,

I know next to nothing about vintage instruments. I DO know antique furniture. I could very easily tell you a few of the obvious things to look for in specific vintage furniture. It's are to believe these "Loar Gods" can't give you a few pointers........if they know.......as to what to look for. Perhaps you should find a reputable luthier who can give you some basic signs of a fake.

Like furniture, there are hundreds of details to look for, but I'm certain there are certain details that a luthier who has worked on vintage instruments.....like Loars, could tell you in less than encyclopedic length.

I haven't looked, but you may find some info. on some of Gruhn's past newsletters.

[AlanN]

If it says The Loar on the h/s, I'd be worried...

[danb]

It's hard to believe these "Loar Gods" can't give you a few pointers........if they know.......as to what to look for. Perhaps you should find a reputable luthier who can give you some basic signs of a fake

As stated before- read through the two Loar Picture of the Day threads and post any follow-up questions there. They are in the "Vintage Instruments" section of the message board. We won't try to distill 40 pages of posts interspersed with details photos into a pithy reply, it wouldn't do the subject any justice.

There are even several pages going through specific counterfeit pieces explaining what to look for.

And simmers- polite questioning of the folks interested in this will get considered replies, your style of asking is unlikely to motivate anyone to reply.

[Scotti Adams]

Its gotta have that smell

[evanreilly]

Gail Hester nailed the determinant: SMELL!
Charlie Derrington was doing serious alchemy to come up with the eau de Loar for his Master Models, but never unlocked that secret.

[danb]

Gail Hester nailed the determinant: SMELL!
Charlie Derrington was doing serious alchemy to come up with the eau de Loar for his Master Models, but never unlocked that secret.

Singe a little basswood..

[Scott Tichenor]

This inane thread and its angry demands that the entire Loar expertise be distilled into a few sentences is amusing.

However, there is a real secret here and Scotti Adams has hinted at it, probably because as many Loar insiders know, for only $7,000 a week he'll take you through his secret Loar owners smell testing workshop. You don't actual inhale the entire scent though. It's sort of like a proper wine tasting. You spit out the wine at the end instead of swallowing. In his workshop you begin the inhale process but then do a quick snort at the end. It's the process of exhaling that reveals a true Loar and the vintage scent cannot be replicated. Once you learn it, you're an expert!

[f5loar]

The easy way to tell right up front? If the price is $200,000 or more it's likely a Loar. If it's $2000 or less it's likely not a Loar. Until you've looked at a few close up I don't think there is a way to begin the knowledge of knowing if you got the real one. But then again you might look at a few out the gate that are fakes. Since you are pretty close to me the best start you could do is come see me and I'll give you a crash coarse with hands on instructions. Call me.

[danb]

You won't see a better offer in this lifetime, Tom's certainly worth a visit

[re simmers]

I apologize if my wise-cracks are taken the wrong way. I am sincerely impressed with the mandolin knowledge here. I don't expect a Loar ID lesson in a few sentences. I just thought a few tips other than price and label might possible for 300win.