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Thread: Opinions? Insights?

  1. #1
    plectrist Ryk Loske's Avatar
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    Default Opinions? Insights?

    Thanks up front for any input.

    It does seem that the Cafe is pretty heavily Gibson, or like builders, weighted. That's fine, i don't have a problem with that. But i do see old offerings here in the classifieds or at dealers for non-Gibson inspired designs: the various Martins (The bent tops and the carved top 2 series), Vegas and Lyon & Healey.

    How do these various designs "color" the tone of a mandolin. How do they effect volumne?

    The instruments in the house are both Rigels: an A+ Deluxe oval hole and an I-110 ff hole. I've had a fair bit of time on a friends Gibson A oval.

    Thanks again,

    Ryk
    mandolin ~ guitar ~ banjo

    "I'm convinced that playing well is not so much a technique as it is a decision. It's a commitment to do the work, strive for concentration, get strategic about advancing by steps, and push patiently forward toward the goal." Dan Crary

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    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    They sound different. They will have a different tonal color than an arch top oval or ff holed instrument. They may be perceptibly less loud to the player than an arch topped instrument. I had the opportunity a couple years ago to play a whole wall full of vintage Gibson oval hole instruments. There were also some Martins scattered there too. I thought they sounded "bad" after playing all of the Gibsons.

    They weren't really "bad" they were different. I've come to appreciate the different voices different styles of instruments have. The cylinder backs and bowl backs have different voices too.

    I currently have a cant topped (like the martins) oval holed mandolin by Jack Spira, a L&H Style A inspired mandolin by Brian Dean (Labraid), and an Eastman 2 pointer with F holes. They all sound different and they all sound great to me.

    Jamie

    EDIT: many of the posters here are bluegrassers and the Archtop ff hole model is thier tool of the trade most often. There are plenty of other mandolin styles and players well represented on the boards.
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    I have mandolins from all over the lot: Gibson, Martin, National, Dobro, Eastman, Flatiron, Sobell, Washburn, Vega (banjo-mandolin), Merrill, B&J Victoria, Strad-O-Lin, Howe-Orme, even a Jordan electric solid-body that rarely sees the light of day.

    The different designs and materials produce a universe of different sounds. It's a pleasure just to pull a recently-neglected instrument out of its case, and rediscover why I got it years ago. The variations in sound quality, volume, sustain, attack, added to the feel of the different necks -- it's amazing how wide a spectrum the one word "mandolin" covers.

    I concur with Jamie. Some mandolins are louder, some softer -- some sound "woody," some clear and trebly, some raucous and piercing, some dark and warm. None sounds "bad," just different.
    Allen Hopkins
    Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
    Natl Triolian Dobro mando
    Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
    H-O mandolinetto
    Stradolin Vega banjolin
    Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
    Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
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    Registered User Mike Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    You should have most bases covered with your Rigel one-two punch. Bluegrass style music drew me to the instrument, and I always wanted a bluegrass style instrument. Now that I have one, I'm more drawn to the old-time, fiddle tune and Irish traditional styles of music. So, I often feel the desire for an A oval style instrument. Problem is, I know guys who have great ovals who just don't bring them to festivals or jams because you can't hear them. They bring Gibson style F hole mandos with some bark. The oval A mandolins are lovely, and I've heard some that can cut in jams. I'd love to have one for work in small groups, backing a fiddle playing to the dog. The bluegrass mandolin is more versatile. You can dig in to the G string with a heavy pick and get the down and dirty Monroe licks. You can lighten up and get the tasty Steffy fills and runs. No disrespect intended to anyone by this post. Lord knows that my MAS runs toward Weber oval holes these days. Maybe a mandola. Like I said, you should be well covered.
    Mike Snyder

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    Which type I play is dependent on the music I play. For Bluegrass and fiddle tunes, I dig the sound of f holes. For Jazz, I want the oval hole. For Western Swing, the electric 4 or 5 string (NOT the banjo). The right tool for the job...
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    plectrist Ryk Loske's Avatar
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    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    Jamie, Mike, Allen and Pete .....

    Thanks for your thoughts. But let me re-phrase the question. How are these other vintage mandolins different from what we experience when playing a Gibson/Gibsonesque built mandolin?

    Thanks again,

    Ryk
    mandolin ~ guitar ~ banjo

    "I'm convinced that playing well is not so much a technique as it is a decision. It's a commitment to do the work, strive for concentration, get strategic about advancing by steps, and push patiently forward toward the goal." Dan Crary

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    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    In the pre-amplified big-band era, arch-top guitars were said to produce "sonic cannonballs", loud enough to stand up to brass instruments. Arch-tops gain volume by releasing their energy over a shorter period of time compared to, say, a sweet-sounding & long-sustaining flat-top.

    The same tends to be true for mandolin-sized instruments. Many flat-top and/or oval hole mandos sound wonderful and sweet (don't forget the bowl-backs), but put them within 50 feet of a banjo and all you hear is the sound of one hand clapping. In addition, a gently-played F-hole arch-top CAN produce fairly sweet sounds at a lower volume, so they tend to be more versatile than others. Of course, YMMV.

    As for political commentary:

    "It does seem that the Cafe is pretty heavily Gibson...". Huh? Only in the sense that the airliner fleet is pretty heavily Boeing: Once you've designed the most useful compromise (and everything built by humans IS a compromise of cost, utility, appeal, weight, longevity, etc.), it's hard to produce a good mandolin or airliner that doesn't resemble many of those that came before it. Just because Gibson got it right 80+ years ago shouldn't be a sin.
    Last edited by EdHanrahan; Sep-04-2009 at 9:23am.
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    plectrist Ryk Loske's Avatar
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    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    Thanks Ed,

    You've misinterpreted my meaning. The time i've spent playing a friend's Gibson A-4 and F-5 have been wonderful. I can truly appreciate all that comes out of Gibson designs and craftsmanship. (The love of my archtop guitar life is a Gibson Super 300 and i've played MANY other models of vintage Gibson arch tops.) My question is how the other vintage mandolin makers designs differ in sound to Gibson/Gibsonesque builds.

    Maybe it's the new school year ... but it's like that new box of Crayolas ... Given a knowledge of Gibson instruments ... what color is a Martin or a Vega or a Lyon & Healey?

    I am aware of the difference in ff and oval hole instruments within build designs.

    Thanks again,

    Ryk
    mandolin ~ guitar ~ banjo

    "I'm convinced that playing well is not so much a technique as it is a decision. It's a commitment to do the work, strive for concentration, get strategic about advancing by steps, and push patiently forward toward the goal." Dan Crary

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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryk View Post
    ...My question is how the other vintage mandolin makers designs differ in sound to Gibson/Gibsonesque builds.
    Can't speak for all of them; I've never owned nor played a Lyon & Healy. My Martin Style A is softer than the F-2 (which is 15 years older than the Martin), has a more "ringy" sound, "sweeter" than the Gibson oval-hole, which is in turn "sweeter" than the F-5 f-hole. The Howe-Orme, with its arched pressed top and tiny guitar-shaped body, chirps like a canary, with a thin, clear, penetrating sound easily heard in any mix. Both of the bowl-backs, the aluminum-bodied Merrill and the more conventional B&J Victoria, have a clear, treble-to-mid-range voice, with the Merrill having, to my ear, a bit of a metallic overtone -- or am I just imagining that since it has a metal body?

    No need to compare the resonator mandolins, Dobro and National, since they're totally different design, and as unlike each other as they're unlike the wood-bodied instruments. One rings, the other barks.

    The Strad-O-Lin is an interesting case; it's the cheapest of my vintage flock, with pressed top and a really short scale, but has surprising "guts," an unsubtle, beefy sound, plenty of mid-range and bass. I've been told it records surprisingly well.

    These are the comparisons I hear in playing a bunch of vintage instruments. I think the generalizations about arch-top vs. flat-top, f-hole vs. oval-hole, generally hold up in my experience. My main caveat is that individual instruments vary so widely from each other, that such generalizations may or may not apply in any specific case.
    Allen Hopkins
    Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
    Natl Triolian Dobro mando
    Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
    H-O mandolinetto
    Stradolin Vega banjolin
    Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
    Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
    Flatiron 3K OM

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    Gibson mandolins, due to the heavy construction, tend to be considerably more bassy than other styles of mandolin. The treble is also different: with the thick belly plate, the really high partials are suppressed.

    The opposite extreme can be found in bowlbacks: the treble is incredibly light and full of overtones, while the bass is sort of weak.

    The in-betweens are in between. For my moneym the carved L&H instruments represent the ideal compromise mando tone, with gorgeous treble response and more bass than you'd get with a bowlback. The various cylinder-back instruments are sonically similar to bowlbacks, except for what seems to be a built-in reverb. I don't know why this is so much more noticeable than in a bowlback, since the interior volume must be nearly the same. It might be the shape, or the unusually deep braces in the cyl-back. (They are also surprisingly loud0.

    Within the bowlback family, the Italians seem to have a more complex tonality than the US-made instruments. The German bowlbacks are wholly other, with a guitar-like sound. They're usually played with rubber picks as well, which silences the pickyclicks and darkens the tone a lot.

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    Registered User Bob DeVellis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    It's very difficult to say how different mandolins sound beyond what has already been said. I've had a bunch of vintage non-Gibsons (as well as a couple or three Gibsons). They're each unique unto themselves. Good examples of Vega cylinder-backs are amazingly sweet, more so than a Gibson oval hole in my judgment. Martin flatbacks have (not surprisingly)more of a guitar-like sound to my ear. Lyon & Healys are somewhere between Gibsons and Vegas. But it's not just vintage instruments that have a different tone. My Sobell has an amazing voice, very different than a Gibson, for example. It's probably my personal favorite. You really have to hear them to understand their differences.

    Histories of old mandolin companies are often fascinating and sometimes full of surprises. Howe-Orme mandolins introduced or advanced a number of innovations that many people assume came later or from another source (e.g., arched tops, "snakehead" headstocks, a full family of mandolin instruments). Lyon & Healy mandolins were huge sellers in their day. The now-much-loved Gibson f-hole mandolins were, of course, a major flop in their day. Martin mandolins helped to save the company. The stories go on. Gibsons are great, to be sure, but they are by no means the only type of mandolin. I suspect that bowl-backs are better known internationally than Gibsons and they've certainly endured for considerably longer. They were responsible for the first mandolin craze in the US. Gibson arguably gets credit for the second.

    Check 'em all out. There's a wide world of mandolins out there to discover and enjoy.
    Bob DeVellis

  12. #12

    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob A View Post
    ... The various cylinder-back instruments are sonically similar to bowlbacks, except for what seems to be a built-in reverb. I don't know why this is so much more noticeable than in a bowlback, since the interior volume must be nearly the same. It might be the shape, or the unusually deep braces in the cyl-back. (They are also surprisingly loud...
    Could be right about the reverb, Bob.
    I play mostly play an x-braced assymetric two point with a cylinder back a-la Vega, but with the back braces extended into large thin fins, and it keeps singing to itself after strings are damped above and below both nut and bridge. Wouldn't be so good in consort, but fab alone.
    Cheers
    Steve

  13. #13
    Registered User jim_n_virginia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryk View Post
    You've misinterpreted my meaning.

    Maybe it's the new school year ... but it's like that new box of Crayolas ... Given a knowledge of Gibson instruments ... what color is a Martin or a Vega or a Lyon & Healey?

    Ryk
    Using this analogy (IMHO) ... a Gibson (or Gibson clone) crayon is bright, bold and very vivid.

    A Martin bent top or the others you mention would be more subtle or softer, like a pastel color.

    BOTH can be used to create beautiful landscapes ...

  14. #14
    plectrist Ryk Loske's Avatar
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    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    Thanks All!

    Ryk
    mandolin ~ guitar ~ banjo

    "I'm convinced that playing well is not so much a technique as it is a decision. It's a commitment to do the work, strive for concentration, get strategic about advancing by steps, and push patiently forward toward the goal." Dan Crary

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    Default Re: Opinions? Insights?

    I mainly play the carved, oval-hole mandolins (teens Gibsons and newer "Gibsonesque" types). I also I have a couple of old flattops (eg, solid wood Supertone & Regal), and a couple modern flattop instruments.

    A couple of specific differences - although these completely figure in to the observations other people have already made above - is that many (but not all) other non-Gibson vintage mandolins continued to use the short 13" scale, which may be harder or easier to play depending on the individual. Also, the way most of the bent tops and flattops were made gave them very low bridges, whereas even though the fingerboard was directly on the top on the vintage Gibsons, the body angle gives most of them tall bridges. This makes them feel and play differently, for sure, and figures in to the tone and volume.

    I have a a lot of casual interest in non-Gibson vintage mandolins, but I find the Gibson scale, neck width/shape, & arched top and back +oval hole to really suit me.
    Jeff Rohrbough
    "Listen louder, play softer"

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