Classical Mandolin Action/Intonation High/Low?

[MandolinoNapoletano]

So I got to thinking after playing A LOT of Calace, my mandolin has very low action. 1.5 mm with no buzzes or rattles. However, I noticed that the higher frets just don't chime out as well as my epiphone mandolin which has higher action and is properly setup. So I decided to raise up the action to 2.0 mm and I noticed playability didn't decrease and the highs chimed. Why is it that in this forum people preach for 1.5 or 1.75 mm action? I just read a history book (in Italian of course) on the Neapolitan Mandolin published by one of the maestri at the mandolin conservatory in Naples. It stated most mandolins back in the day had an action of 2.5 mm, which is higher than all.

[trebleclef528]

Why is it that in this forum people preach for 1.5 or 1.75 mm action? I just read a history book (in Italian of course) on the Neapolitan Mandolin published by one of the maestri at the mandolin conservatory in Naples. It stated most mandolins back in the day had an action of 2.5 mm, which is higher than all.

Perhaps i've missed something but I have'nt been aware of people on this forum preaching about 1.5 or 1.75mm. Like most aspects of mandolin playing i think the action is something of a personal choice. Most Neapolitan mandolins that i have had through my hands (well over 100) have an action of 2mm at the twelth fret (from the top of the fret to the G string). 2mm seems to be the measurement that most of the people I know in the mandolin world go for.

I've had a few with 2.5mm at the 12th fret which to me seems high... too high for comfortable playing but again it's a personal thing.

[vkioulaphides]

I second Ian's perfectly sensible point.

Also, when action has been discussed from time to time on this forum, the subject has been —as far as I recall— specifically relating to some vintage instrument(s) that some Café contributor might be considering buying, and therefore the concern implicit has been any possible warping of the neck, sinkage of the soundboard, or some other structural problem(s). Inordinately high action may, of course, be a "red flag" for some such problem.

Assuming a structurally healthy instrument, however, the action is (as Ian writes) a personal choice— also provided that, at the action-of-choice, the instrument's intonation is also correct.

Cheers,

Victor

[Jim Garber]

I just read a history book (in Italian of course) on the Neapolitan Mandolin published by one of the maestri at the mandolin conservatory in Naples. It stated most mandolins back in the day had an action of 2.5 mm, which is higher than all.

What history book did you read? Specifics would truly help here. And it would also help to know what the specific meaning here is of "back in the day." It is quite possible that action would have been higher esp if strings were lighter or even of gut.

[MandolinoNapoletano]

What history book did you read? Specifics would truly help here. And it would also help to know what the specific meaning here is of "back in the day." It is quite possible that action would have been higher esp if strings were lighter or even of gut.

A book called "Story and Technique of Neapolitan Mandolin" by Vincenzo Sorrentino. It refers to the late 1800s as back in the day. VERY good read if you understand italian. It doesn't go into specific gauges, but says metal tensioned strings. I know you in particular like 1.5 mm action. Don't you feel that the frets wear quicker and the high notes aren't as loud and brilliant?

[Jim Garber]

I know you in particular like 1.5 mm action. Don't you feel that the frets wear quicker and the high notes aren't as loud and brilliant?

I don't recall having said that I prefer 1.5 action. My main playing instrument is 2.0 or even slightly higher than that at the 12th fret.

I wonder at the physics of that tho: why would the strings sound louder with higher action, unless the tension were higher as well. And why would the strings wear quicker?

[MandolinoNapoletano]

I don't recall having said that I prefer 1.5 action. My main playing instrument is 2.0 or even slightly higher than that at the 12th fret.

I wonder at the physics of that tho: why would the strings sound louder with higher action, unless the tension were higher as well. And why would the strings wear quicker?

The physics is quite simple. The higher the action, the harder you can pick without worrying about fret buzz/noise. As to why would the frets wear quicker? It's because the closer the string is to the fret, in the midst of playing can be pressed slightly more than is needed to make a clean note. Making the frets wear quicker. But this is regarding classical playing or even hard bluegrass playing, not soft slow stuff.

[Jim Garber]

The physics is quite simple. The higher the action, the harder you can pick without worrying about fret buzz/noise. As to why would the frets wear quicker? It's because the closer the string is to the fret, in the midst of playing can be pressed slightly more than is needed to make a clean note. Making the frets wear quicker. But this is regarding classical playing or even hard bluegrass playing, not soft slow stuff.

All right... so the higher action allows you to play louder and harder. However, if the strings are closer to the frets, you would have to press less than if the the strings were further away. Lower action allows you to play with less effort.

[MandolinoNapoletano]

All right... so the higher action allows you to play louder and harder. However, if the strings are closer to the frets, you would have to press less than if the the strings were further away. Lower action allows you to play with less effort.

Exactly, but unfortunately many of us learn on cheap instruments and are used to pressing to a certain heavy degree. When we upgrade to better instruments, we tend to carry on this habit where the frets wear down more significantly due to the fact we don't change finger aggression in accordance to the lower action, which results in fret wear.

[Jim Garber]

Personally, if I hear buzzing I lay back on whatever instrument I am playing. I suppose if you are a beginner, then you might carry over that habit from the high action instrument to the lower one, but as you gain musical experience and listen, you would temper your playing to the action, or else fix the action.

[Martin Jonas]

It really depends on personal preferences, technique and style. If you pick hard, you may want to have a higher action to allow for greater amplitude (and thus volume) without buzzing. However, what matters for buzzing is the vertical component of the amplitude. In an ideal world, one would aim to strike the strings at a right angle to the fingerboard and all of the oscillation of the string would then be parallel to the board, and thus there would be no buzzing whatever the action. In reality, one will never quite achieve that, but nevertheless the lowest "safe" action without buzzing is determined not just by the volume of playing but also by the picking technique.

As far as fretwear is concerned, I can see that switching from a high action to low action may initially encourage the player to press harder than necessary, but I would think that one can get used to applying lower finger pressure relatively quickly. Not applying unneccessary force has many benefits beyond reducing fretwear: cleaner tone, better intonation, more playing comfort, less effort and greater dexterity.

My personal preference on my Embergher is 1.5mm on the E and 2mm on the G string. It never buzzes even in ff passages and plays cleanly all the way up the neck (not that I spend all that much time up there). My F5 is set up much the same way, my Ajr at around 1.7mm and my Ceccherini at around 2mm. Works for me, but there is no reason why it should work for you -- your playing style and the neck of your mandolin will be different from mine, so you should settle on your own preferred setup. Pro setup guys will not use a one-size-fits-all approach but will discuss preferences with the player.

Martin

[dave17120]

I have justy read through this discussion, and I have to admit.... I fell at the first fence!
"However, I noticed that the higher frets just don't chime out as well as my epiphone mandolin which has higher action and is properly setup."
What does 'properly set up' mean?

I have to say I agree with Jim and Martin. Set up is very individual. It is a marriage between the particular mandolin and the player and his/her style.

Having had a lot of mandolins 'through my hands', I find many, with presumably 'factory settings'.... (properly set up?........ or not?...) have a string height of over 1mm at the nut, and 3-4 at fret 12. They are playable.... just.... but very hard work, and intonation up the board is shot!

I think perhaps the reason for this is twofold. First, its easier to set up and instrument like that, than really fine tuned heights, and second, any variations in temperature humidity, are less likely to make the instrument unplayable.

I tend to set up mandolins I restore with a height of next to nothing at fret 1 (slide a piece of paper under, but not card..) and between 1.5 and 2mm at fret 12. Anything more, and the upper frets become too difficult to play easily, and tend to have poor intonation as the string is stretched a fair way to reach the fret. Assuming flat frets, this gives you a relatively easy playability, without too many intonation problems up then fingerboard.

In the end, its all a compromise.... there is no one perfect set-up.

[vkioulaphides]

I would think that one can get used to applying lower finger pressure relatively quickly.

I can gladly second that. As I go from playing the bass (the instrument of my professional occupation) to playing the mandolin (the instrument of my leisure) each and every day, I make that --VERY significant-- adjustment just as frequently, and just as subconsciously.

Famed Russian-American violinist/conductor Alexander (Sasha) Schneider used to implore us, in his own unique way, "Don't sqveeze de bow!!!" One can easily "transpose" the same ergonomic principle: Don't squeeze the fingerboard!

Cheers,

Victor