Beethoven Mandolin Pieces

[Mark Levesque]

Was the original accompaniment for the Beethoven pieces harpsichord or piano?

Thanks,

[SincereCorgi]

Probably depended on what happened to be in the parlor at the time. Most likely a fortepiano though, I'd guess.

[Martin Jonas]

Fortepiano, I understand. Richard Walz has done a "historically informed" (as I believe one calls it) performance of all four pieces on reproduction period instruments, which you can download from Daniel Larson's site here.

Martin

[Plamen Ivanov]

It was actually a "Hammerflügel". It looks at least more like a grand piano. In any case some sort of a piano rather than harpsichord.

[Mark Levesque]

Hammerflügel?
I have read that the Beethoven pieces were for harpsichord and mandolin.
When was it discovered it was written for Hammerflügel?
Is there an online source?

Thanks again,

[btrott]

According to Grove, the four pieces in question were written for mandolin and piano. Grove does make a distinction in the listing of instrumentation between pf (piano) and fp (fortepiano), and uses "pf" for the Beethoven mandolin pieces.

Barry

[barbaram]

I was lucky enough to do many concerts and recordings of the early mandolin repertoire with Yehudi Menuhin's long time accompanist (harpsichordist, John Gray) and he said it was definitely NOT idiomatic harpsichord writing; e.g. the Eb Adagio has the repeated chords in the opening - very piano-like but not what an informed composer would do for the harpsichord.

[Martin Jonas]

I don't know much about piano evolution, but my understanding (largely from the Wikipedia entry here) is that "fortepiano" simply refers to the earlier incarnations of the piano, up to about 1800, which then over a longish period gradually evolved into the modern piano (or pianoforte), and that the precise point where one marks the transition from one to another is fairly arbitrary. For what it's worth, the Beethoven pieces were written in about 1796, and if I understand it right, all pianos built around that time were what one would now call fortepianos. Indeed, Beethoven's own Broadwood piano shown here was only made in 1823 and is still called a fortepiano.

Martin

[Simen Kjaersdalen]

Harpsicord, I guess:

http://www.marilynnmair.com/beethovens_mandolin.shtml

But the thing is, that Beethoven's music - in my opinion - is best at the fortepiano. And if Beethoven went for the harpsicord mostly of practical reasons, why should we follow? Beethoven on the harpsicord just doesn't sound natural. And there we have some of the problems about historical performances, right?

[barbaram]

My guess is that it most unlikely to be harspichord!

I think the article is just not correct.

[Plamen Ivanov]

My guess is that it most unlikely to be harspichord!

I think the article is just not correct.

I second this opinion!

Few years ago i made and posted a summary of Caterina Lichtenberg’s master thesis regarding Beethoven’s pieces. Unfortunately i cannot search the old Message Board (I think it is possible, but i don’t know how). But i will check the original when i come home later tonight.

Best,
Plamen

[SincereCorgi]

Were the Beethoven mandolin pieces intended as more than little diversions? I was under the impression that they were a gift for a mandolin-playing aristocrat- if that were the case, he probably would have been pretty flexible about the conditions under which they were performed (they seem sort of generically 'sturdy' to me, like he probably would have shrugged if someone wanted to play them on the violin). The worse can of worms is what kind of mandolin to use, right?

Not trying to shrug off the question, just suggesting that some pieces are written to be more sensitive to instrumentation than others.

[Simen Kjaersdalen]

I hope this will be the correct listing:

# WoO 43a: Sonatina for mandolin and harpsichord
# WoO 43b: Adagio for mandolin and harpsichord
# WoO 44a: Sonatina for mandolin and piano
# WoO 44b: Andante and variations for mandolin and harpsichord

Source: Wikipedia, Beethoven

[barbaram]

I think the Wikipedia is just not correct.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi All,

Sometime ago a copple of us had a nice discussion about this interesting subject.
You can find it here ( http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...dwig+beethoven ) and read it all!


Success,

Alex.

[Plamen Ivanov]

Thank you, Alex! That's exactly what i was trying to find. :-)

Best,
Plamen

[imusici]

Hi guys, I hope you´re well. I´ve been looking for # WoO 44b: Andante and variations for mandolin and harpsichord musicsheets (score and mandolin part), but I´m not being lucky. Do someone of you have this piece?

Thanks in advance.

[fernando.f]

Hi. Hope this is what you were looking for.

Fernando

[Dick Dery]

"und Cembalo" = and cimbalom( aka hammered dulcimer)?

[Martin Jonas]

"und Cembalo" = and cimbalom( aka hammered dulcimer)?

"Cembalo" is German for harpsichord. As discussed in this thread back in 2009, that's probably wrong anyway as the pieces were most likely written for fortepiano.

Fernando's post is missing the Andante Con Variazioni. Unfortunately, the editions I have of that piece are still in copyright, so I can't post them. I'm not aware of a public domain edition.

Martin

[imusici]

Greetings,
Hi Fernando, thank you very much for the pieces you posted, but, It is missing the piece I asked for. But nevertheless, I´m so grateful. I already have the pieces you posted. Again Thank you.
Martin, don´t you know if somebody has a public domain edition? It's not easy to find it.

Thanks in advance.

Ivan

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi all,

For an authentic performance you just follow the title of the Van Beethoven pieces with mandolin and you do the best possible thing you can do; play them with a gut strung 6x1 Milanese mandolino or a gut strung 4x1 cremonese mandolino accompanied by a Harpsichord And remember; Van Beethoven, intelligent and a man of his time as he was, must have been well aware of the differences between the Harpsichord (Cembalo) and the Forte Piano... .


Best greetings,

Alex.

PS. Here is a video of the 'Theme and Variatons' imusici/Ivan was asking for, performed by no one less than Ferdinand Binnendijk and Laurens de Man. A fine recording on modern instruments of our time.