new standard guitar tuning

[Jim Broyles]

It's almost always (at least 95% of the time, I'd say) written low to high, left to right - EADGBE - because that is the order of the strings seen by a right handed player looking at the fretboard from the playing position. It makes spelling out chords intuitive - 022100 for E major, x00232 for D major, etc. This is the way it is most often seen here on the Cafe as well: 7523 for G chop, 0023 for open G, etc.

[fishtownmike]

I believe the invention of tablature has a lot to do with this. It was a new invention in my early years of playing sometime in the 80's. Tablature is written in a way that describes the strings of an instrument from the low string to the high string.

[Explorer]

A few points have come up which I'd like to address:

Not trying to derail this thread, but I hadn't heard of these special strings. Now, tenor guitar A strings are notoriously prone to snapping- would this be a magic bullet for that?

First off, if one's scale length on the tenor is less than 23", the A should already work. However, if the scale length is longer, moving in the direction of 25", then a normal strings would snap at around G#4, regardless of gauge. For that, the strings from Octave4Plus would definitely work.

Octave4Plus makes strings for both A4 and B4 at the 25.5" scale length.

Maybe this tuning is the reason i always found Robert Fripp to be such a boring guitarist.

I commented on this in either the NST thread or in the NST group. I had gone to the local incarnation of the Guitar Craft circle. For all the talk about improvisation and breaking rules, there was extremely subtle discouragement regarding playing anything which wasn't... Frippian. I even asked, with all the music available for full fifths instruments, and all the variety therein, why did all the Guitar Craft material only draw on Frippian devices and ideas? Why wasn't there any exploration of... oh, what's his name... ah, Bach? If a mandolin orchestra can play amazing music of so many different styles, why do all Guitar Craft groups have such an indelible Fripp stamp on their accenting? I'm... not so popular for asking such things. *laugh*

But, being serious, Mike, I don't think that fifths tuning is what makes Fripp so monotonous, any more than fifths makes the Bach sonatas and partitas so amazing. I think it has to do with real genius... or lack thereof. *laugh*

Just out curiosity instead of CGDDAE could you use six strings out of a seven string guitar set and tune to FCGDAE? Seems like it would let you get fifths without changing tension too much.

I did calculations to keep my string tension the same for full fifths as for my normal strings in standard tuning. I bought most of the string set in the form of bulk phosphor bronze strings, with only the high B4 coming from Octave4Plus.

With that being said, I have two projects ahead of me now.

I just acquired an Ibanez 7-string acoustic, with a jumbo body. The action and relief are HORRIBLE on it (I can stack 4 quarters under the lowest string at the 12th fret), so I'll be having the bridge shaved down so the saddle can come down to a reasonable height. I'm planning on going for full fifths, at least initially, so the tuning will be FCGDAEB from low to high.

I also just acquired a THIRD Rainsong A-WS1000NT. The A-WS1000 is the only composite guitar with both a bolt-on neck and a truss rod, and my other two are set up, one each, for standard and for full fifths with a B4. This third one might get set up for low full fifths (FCGDAE low to high).

I think the different scale lengths of mandolins and guitars make the standard tunings very well suited for each. I've tried fifths tunings on guitars and have never liked it. The distance in pitches between adjacent strings when tuned to fifths means you have to go up the string longer before you can cross over to the next string for a note. This, for me, makes most note patterns harder to finger, either as single notes or chords.

Oddly, though, there are players of octave mandolin, bouzouki, cittern and mandocello who don't use a subset of standard guitar tuning, and who instead embrace full fifths.

I'm not arguing that everyone should tune the same; if that were true, I'd never have switched to full fifths on guitar. I know that you stated your opinion as your opinion, but I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of long-scale instruments in full fifths, and the players of those instruments find the tunings well suited.

I believe the invention of tablature has a lot to do with this. It was a new invention in my early years of playing sometime in the 80's. Tablature is written in a way that describes the strings of an instrument from the low string to the high string.

I'm assuming that you mean tabulature was new to you in the '80s. I have facsimiles of lute and guitar tabulature, the originals of which are much older than that.

----

Since there's been discussion of strings for this, here are my strings for full fifths, with tension equivalent to my favorite string set in terms of tension, D'addario EJ15 phosphor bronze extra light strings.

B4 - .006 from Octave 4 Plus
E4 - .010
A3 - .018 PB wound
D3 - .030 PB wound
G2 - .042 PB wound
C2 - .054 PB wound

Using the .018 for the A3 gives the same plain/wound stringing as for a mandolin or mandola when capoing at the fifth fret....

[fishtownmike]

Your right about the tablature. I should have said the onslaught of the guitar tablature magazines that started in the 80's. The first i believe being the magazine Guitar for the practicing musician.

[John McGann]

Tablature is written in a way that describes the strings of an instrument from the low string to the high string.

Only if you read it from the bottom up- you can also read it from the top down, right?

Naming tunings low to high vs. high to low is a bit like writing chord symbols- there is no one certain gold standard, though everyone has their own preferences (I like low to high myself, since that's the player's vantage point from the string closest to the chin down to the one closest to the floor, or left to right, unless you are playing a Chapman Stick, or...)

Regarding Fripp- I also find the NST cult music a bit samey, but have been a long time King Crimson fan since the 70's, and find his playing and composing in the "Crimson idiom" to be really interesting- if you have an affinity for Bartok, check out the album "Red" from the mid-70's... a lot of that music sounds less dated to me than the 80's edition of the band, which I also liked, but the albums have a very '80's "we are going to compete with the pop marketplace" production value (featuring such cultural artifacts as gated snare, mondo strat compression, suspect haircuts, etc.).

Despite that, some great stuff from that band as well (Larks Tongues in Aspic pt. III for example!); not as keen on the later editions of the band- IMHO + VMMV etc. of course.

[s11141827]

A few points have come up which I'd like to address:



First off, if one's scale length on the tenor is less than 23", the A should already work. However, if the scale length is longer, moving in the direction of 25", then a normal strings would snap at around G#4, regardless of gauge. For that, the strings from Octave4Plus would definitely work.

Octave4Plus makes strings for both A4 and B4 at the 25.5" scale length.



I commented on this in either the NST thread or in the NST group. I had gone to the local incarnation of the Guitar Craft circle. For all the talk about improvisation and breaking rules, there was extremely subtle discouragement regarding playing anything which wasn't... Frippian. I even asked, with all the music available for full fifths instruments, and all the variety therein, why did all the Guitar Craft material only draw on Frippian devices and ideas? Why wasn't there any exploration of... oh, what's his name... ah, Bach? If a mandolin orchestra can play amazing music of so many different styles, why do all Guitar Craft groups have such an indelible Fripp stamp on their accenting? I'm... not so popular for asking such things. *laugh*

But, being serious, Mike, I don't think that fifths tuning is what makes Fripp so monotonous, any more than fifths makes the Bach sonatas and partitas so amazing. I think it has to do with real genius... or lack thereof. *laugh*



I did calculations to keep my string tension the same for full fifths as for my normal strings in standard tuning. I bought most of the string set in the form of bulk phosphor bronze strings, with only the high B4 coming from Octave4Plus.

With that being said, I have two projects ahead of me now.

I just acquired an Ibanez 7-string acoustic, with a jumbo body. The action and relief are HORRIBLE on it (I can stack 4 quarters under the lowest string at the 12th fret), so I'll be having the bridge shaved down so the saddle can come down to a reasonable height. I'm planning on going for full fifths, at least initially, so the tuning will be FCGDAEB from low to high.

I also just acquired a THIRD Rainsong A-WS1000NT. The A-WS1000 is the only composite guitar with both a bolt-on neck and a truss rod, and my other two are set up, one each, for standard and for full fifths with a B4. This third one might get set up for low full fifths (FCGDAE low to high).



Oddly, though, there are players of octave mandolin, bouzouki, cittern and mandocello who don't use a subset of standard guitar tuning, and who instead embrace full fifths.

I'm not arguing that everyone should tune the same; if that were true, I'd never have switched to full fifths on guitar. I know that you stated your opinion as your opinion, but I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of long-scale instruments in full fifths, and the players of those instruments find the tunings well suited.



I'm assuming that you mean tabulature was new to you in the '80s. I have facsimiles of lute and guitar tabulature, the originals of which are much older than that.

----

Since there's been discussion of strings for this, here are my strings for full fifths, with tension equivalent to my favorite string set in terms of tension, D'addario EJ15 phosphor bronze extra light strings.

B4 - .006 from Octave 4 Plus
E4 - .010
A3 - .018 PB wound
D3 - .030 PB wound
G2 - .042 PB wound
C2 - .054 PB wound

Using the .018 for the A3 gives the same plain/wound stringing as for a mandolin or mandola when capoing at the fifth fret....

The Supermandophone.

[s11141827]

How about a Nylon string version?

[Explorer]

Interesting!

The Magma website lists the same "GCT-CELLO" string set as having a high G4 instead the high B4 shown on their Reverb listings. If I had to go the Magma route, I'd probably contace them first and nail down the details instead of risking having to return something due to a changed specification.

Instead of paying over $20US a string set though, here's the route I went for the full-fifths nylon-strung guitar:

Buy the preferred set of nylon strings .
Buy a reel (lifetime supply) of .5mm monofilament fishing line.

From bottom to top, string it up.

Low C - use low E string.
G - use A string.
D - use D string.
A - use B string.
High E - use that high E string.
High B - use the fishing line.

It takes about an hour or less of use and tuning to settle in that high B monofilament string, but then you're good to go. I don't windmill or use a pick on the nylon-strung, so I don't suffer breakage, even though I do use some flamenco technique.

[Mainer73]

I just picked up a cheap old parlor guitar, both to have as a "house guitar", for visiting guitarists who might not have an instrument with them, as well as my girlfriend who wants to learn a bit. I hadn't played one on about 18 years and found that since I've been playing GDAE instruments exclusively since then, I'm all flummoxed with the standard tuning. The muscle memory is strong!

[Mark Gunter]

It’s like riding a bike, most of your facility with it will return if you play it a bit.

[Mainer73]

It’s like riding a bike, most of your facility with it will return if you play it a bit.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I
actually did have a couple moments of it coming back today but it didn't last long. A few good G an D runs and fills and then a little flatpicking of Wildwood Flower but then I fell apart and started reverting to mandolin/fiddle fingers 🤣