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  1. #1
    Registered User CoMando's Avatar
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    Default new standard guitar tuning

    I came across this article about the "new standard guitar tuning", in which the middle 4 strings are tuned like a mandolin.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Standard_Tuning

    Forgive me if these are stupid questions, I know nothing about guitar and very little theory. Does this mean I could pick up a guitar tuned in this new tuning and be able to play a song that I can play on mando...as long as I stay on the 4 middle strings? I wouldn't know how to incorporate the other two strings. Wouldn't having the guitar tuned in 5ths make it much easier to learn guitar? Do you guys that know more than me see a future in this tuning? It seems to make more sense? Educate me.
    Last edited by CoMando; Jan-01-2010 at 9:55pm. Reason: poor typing
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    It's apple for oranges. There are many tunings for guitar used by musicians today. If you want to tune it like a mandolin...go for it. I prefer the "old standard"...E B G D A E becuase I'm used to it and it works for me. I occasionally will do a drop D tuning or tune it to an open G or E. I know some that retune the mandolin like the bottom 4 strings of the guitar (mainly country players who don't really play mandolin and don't want to learn). I remember a time Chet Atkins was at our old shop. Some young guys came in and were playing one of Chet's tunes. They were contorting their hands every which way to play the tune. When they were done they asked Chet what he thought. He complimented them. They finally left. After they were gone Chet looked at me and said "I didn't have the heart to tell them I retune the guitar for that tune."

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  3. #3
    Mandolicious fishtownmike's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    I never got a notice in the mail about this. How dare they not tell me about this. And what this has been the standard since 1985? No wonder that i can't figure out all these songs by ear. I'm not tuned right. And for would you be able to play some mando stuff on the guitar in this tuning. Sure you could. Though i would love to see you do the G chop chord and the switch to the D. Good luck.

  4. #4

    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
    It's apple for oranges. There are many tunings for guitar used by musicians today. If you want to tune it like a mandolin...go for it. I prefer the "old standard"...E B G D A E becuase I'm used to it and it works for me. I occasionally will do a drop D tuning or tune it to an open G or E. I know some that retune the mandolin like the bottom 4 strings of the guitar (mainly country players who don't really play mandolin and don't want to learn). I remember a time Chet Atkins was at our old shop. Some young guys came in and were playing one of Chet's tunes. They were contorting their hands every which way to play the tune. When they were done they asked Chet what he thought. He complimented them. They finally left. After they were gone Chet looked at me and said "I didn't have the heart to tell them I retune the guitar for that tune."

    Whatever works for me is good for me. What works for you is good for you.
    whoa whoa whoa...slow down. I thought the standard tuning for the mandolin was GDAE (the bottom 4 notes for the guitar?)

  5. #5

    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    Hi, CoMando!

    There are a few discussions here about the tuning you mention. One could absolutely use the center four strings as an octave mandolin.

    The tuning you describe was a compromise, as it was impossible to tune the high string to the logical high B4 for full fifths. Technology has since caught up, and now it is possible to tune the high string to B4, yielding full fifths across the entire six courses of a guitar (low to high, CGDAEB). I have a few guitars tuned in full fifths.

    You can find discussion of the crippled fifths tuning (optimistically called NST, but it never became the standard) here.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=45977

    Here's my first experiment in tuning a guitar to full fifths.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=50620

    And here's the discussion about my six-course mandophone, converted from an Ovation 12-string.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=52587

    There is also a discussion group, originally about NST, but a lot of it has now moved on to full fifths.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php?groupid=73

    For many (including me), there is a beauty and utility in having the same patterns occur across all six strings. For me, another beautiful feature is my ability to capo at the fifth fret to get the open strings of a mandolin (top four strings) and a mandola (middle four strings). The middle four open strings give me a bouzouki/octave mandolin, and the bottom four strings give me a mandocello. (Of course, the bottom five courses can be used as a cittern.) The instrument, with conversion work (nut work and action/relief/setup) cost me less than $700, which is substantially less than a five-course cittern.

    An easy way to experiment is to retune your guitar (low to high) CGDDAE. This puts no strain on a guitar, as you're only downtuning, and by using only one of the D courses for most things (fingermuting and crosspicking when needed), you can give the tuning a try without having to buy the high-tension B4 string before you know you want to go in that direction. I use this tuning when I'm using a borrowed guitar and I want to play something which is easy in full fifths.

    Was this helpful?
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    If you think that's a strange tuning, check out how many ways there are to tune a banjo!
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    Registered User Chris Rogers's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    I play BG with a guitarist who has tuned in full fourths (low to high, EADGCF) for years and he sounds great. Granted, there are some open chord forms near the nut that don't work as well, but he compensates just fine, and his breaks are smokin' good. He says that after getting used to it, it is much more intuitive than standard tuning, which of course is preaching to the mando choir.
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    Registered User SincereCorgi's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by T.J. View Post
    The tuning you describe was a compromise, as it was impossible to tune the high string to the logical high B4 for full fifths. Technology has since caught up, and now it is possible to tune the high string to B4, yielding full fifths across the entire six courses of a guitar (low to high, CGDAEB). I have a few guitars tuned in full fifths.
    Not trying to derail this thread, but I hadn't heard of these special strings. Now, tenor guitar A strings are notoriously prone to snapping- would this be a magic bullet for that?

    -Trevor

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    Registered User majorbanjo's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    I really like guitar standard tuning....EADGBE....I'm sure some folks like other tuning..but for the last 30 years this has worked for me......some songs require some alternate tuning....sometimes I retune...sometimes I work around it....cause I"m pretty lazy by nature....:-).....
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  10. #10
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    One of my favorite topics: The marriage of the guitar and mando families.

    I never liked that standard tuning 'speed bump' between the G and B strings. So I was pretty sold on NST the moment I heard of it - I mean, all the advantages of fifths-tuning, and we move the speed bump off to the side of the road. That was a step in the right direction. But then T.J. pointed us in the direction of the B4 string, and that's all I want now.

    Standard-tuned guitar is really just a big, unenlightened mandolin. Give a guitar a helping hand today. Tune in fifths. Your guitar will thank you.

    Seriously, now my electric guitars are all big, sustaining, singing, growling, string-bending, vibrato-ing, loud, souped up mandolins to me. The upsides are endless, and the only downside I see is now I'm really close-minded: All other tunings look (and play) like a compromise!

    And the benefits of tuning a guitar to the first six clockwise stops on the circle of fifths simplifies reading and theory so much, you'd think you were cheating!

  11. #11
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by makemeasammich View Post
    whoa whoa whoa...slow down. I thought the standard tuning for the mandolin was GDAE (the bottom 4 notes for the guitar?)
    Whoa, yourself. When talking about tuning for stringed instruments, the standard is low to high. Thus, GDAE on a mandolin, but EADGBE on a guitar. Different intervals and different fingerings. Big Joe wrote EBGDAE, but he was going high to low. If you look at open chords on the bottom four strings on a guitar, they are mirror images of the same chords on a mandolin, 3-2-0-0/0-0-2-3 = G, but I know very few people who learn their mandolin chords this way. Joe was talking about people tuning their mandolins in fourths like a guitar.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    I like the mnemonic: "California Guitarists Drop Acid Every Gig".
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    Mandolicious fishtownmike's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    Maybe this tuning is the reason i always found Robert Fripp to be such a boring guitarist.

  14. #14

    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by T.J. View Post
    Hi, CoMando!

    There are a few discussions here about the tuning you mention. One could absolutely use the center four strings as an octave mandolin.

    The tuning you describe was a compromise, as it was impossible to tune the high string to the logical high B4 for full fifths. Technology has since caught up, and now it is possible to tune the high string to B4, yielding full fifths across the entire six courses of a guitar (low to high, CGDAEB). I have a few guitars tuned in full fifths.

    You can find discussion of the crippled fifths tuning (optimistically called NST, but it never became the standard) here.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=45977

    Here's my first experiment in tuning a guitar to full fifths.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=50620

    And here's the discussion about my six-course mandophone, converted from an Ovation 12-string.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=52587

    There is also a discussion group, originally about NST, but a lot of it has now moved on to full fifths.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php?groupid=73

    For many (including me), there is a beauty and utility in having the same patterns occur across all six strings. For me, another beautiful feature is my ability to capo at the fifth fret to get the open strings of a mandolin (top four strings) and a mandola (middle four strings). The middle four open strings give me a bouzouki/octave mandolin, and the bottom four strings give me a mandocello. (Of course, the bottom five courses can be used as a cittern.) The instrument, with conversion work (nut work and action/relief/setup) cost me less than $700, which is substantially less than a five-course cittern.

    An easy way to experiment is to retune your guitar (low to high) CGDDAE. This puts no strain on a guitar, as you're only downtuning, and by using only one of the D courses for most things (fingermuting and crosspicking when needed), you can give the tuning a try without having to buy the high-tension B4 string before you know you want to go in that direction. I use this tuning when I'm using a borrowed guitar and I want to play something which is easy in full fifths.

    Was this helpful?
    Just out curiosity instead of CGDDAE could you use six strings out of a seven string guitar set and tune to FCGDAE? Seems like it would let you get fifths without changing tension too much.

  15. #15
    Mandolicious fishtownmike's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    The only problem i see with tuning like that is on the d and g string. Tuning them up to reach those pitch there is a good chance your strings will snap premature because of the high tension required. Or if you tune those strings down to those pitches they would be pretty slacky and not very good sounding.

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    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by fishtownmike View Post
    The only problem i see with tuning like that is on the d and g string. Tuning them up to reach those pitch there is a good chance your strings will snap premature because of the high tension required. Or if you tune those strings down to those pitches they would be pretty slacky and not very good sounding.
    EADGBE > CGDAEG is: down 2 steps (possible problem with light strings,) down 1 step, same, up 1 step, up 2-1/2 steps (possible problem,) up 1-1/2 steps (possible problem.) If you go with gauges something like 52-36-24-16-12-8 it should be no problem.
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    I think the different scale lengths of mandolins and guitars make the standard tunings very well suited for each. I've tried fifths tunings on guitars and have never liked it. The distance in pitches between adjacent strings when tuned to fifths means you have to go up the string longer before you can cross over to the next string for a note. This, for me, makes most note patterns harder to finger, either as single notes or chords. As I once heard a guitar player say: "Standard tuning works great on a guitar. It's as if the instrument were made for it."
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  18. #18
    Mandolicious fishtownmike's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Broyles View Post
    EADGBE > CGDAEG is: down 2 steps (possible problem with light strings,) down 1 step, same, up 1 step, up 2-1/2 steps (possible problem,) up 1-1/2 steps (possible problem.) If you go with gauges something like 52-36-24-16-12-8 it should be no problem.
    He was talking this FCGDAE instead CGDAEG. Tuning the other string wouldn't be a major problem but the d up to g and the g up to d would be. Tuning them down would also be a problem.

  19. #19
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    In that case I'd go FCGDAE > up 1/2; up 1-1/2; up 2-1/2; up 3-1/2; down 1; same. 42-28-18w-11-13-10, but the 2nd string would be lower than the 3rd string. Might sound pretty peculiar. If you tuned the whole thing in fifths you'd need three octaves between the bottom and top strings rather than the two on a standard guitar.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

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  20. #20
    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    Whoa, yourself. When talking about tuning for stringed instruments, the standard is low to high
    Just FYI, a lot of steel guitarists (and don't get started talkiing to those guys about tunings!) spell their tunings high-to-low and consider that the standard. Very confusing, especially when some of their tunings are reentrant.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    Bravo Fish Mike

  22. #22
    jbmando RIP HK Jim Broyles's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by delsbrother View Post
    Just FYI, a lot of steel guitarists (and don't get started talkiing to those guys about tunings!) spell their tunings high-to-low and consider that the standard. Very confusing, especially when some of their tunings are reentrant.
    Yeah, maybe "fretted" is a better term. I know when we spell chord fingerings out we go low to high - 7523, etc.
    "I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp

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  23. #23

    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by fishtownmike View Post
    He was talking this FCGDAE instead CGDAEG. Tuning the other string wouldn't be a major problem but the d up to g and the g up to d would be. Tuning them down would also be a problem.
    After thinking a little more it probably be tuned to low to get F. But for string gauges using a 7 string set would be Low B tuned down to F, E down to C, A to G, D stays the same, B down to A, and E would be unchanged. The original gaged string for G would not be used. Probably only useable from C to E though.

  24. #24
    Mano-a-Mando John McGann's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    Quote Originally Posted by fishtownmike View Post
    Maybe this tuning is the reason i always found Robert Fripp to be such a boring guitarist.
    Yeah, maybe

  25. #25
    Mandolicious fishtownmike's Avatar
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    Default Re: new standard guitar tuning

    From the day i started playing i always looked at the guitar strings as being the low E as being the top string and the high E as being the bottom string but technically its the other way around. The high E is the top and low E the bottom. But from a normal viewpoint it seems like it not right. We all look at someone holding the instrument and to us the low string is on top and the high is on the bottom. But now i see a lot of reference to it being the other way around on the net and even books. Technically as you rise in pitch you are going higher on a musical staff so thats why the high E is considered the top string vice versa for the low E. Big joe referenced it right when he wrote EBGDAE and not the way many including me say EADGBE.

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